Amy Gropper, once believing she would never teach, reflects on the experiences that led her to become an educator, sharing lessons learned from life, horses, and this thing we call school. Her interactions with others helped Amy develop some principled practices that not only benefit the students she teaches, but also serve others who want to pursue the noble field of education. Whatever your role, in whatever sector – but especially if you are a teacher-leader – you will find yourself nodding in agreement with Amy’s wisdom. Listen, lift a valuable concept or two, and enhance your own work as a result.
SHOW NOTES
2:30 – second-career educator and an effective, thoughtful, and creative teacher
3:30 – every never you utter in life becomes your roadmap
3:45 – I will never be a teacher. I hate school
4:00 – perhaps not the greatest horse rider but a great teacher of horse riding
5:00 – going back to school to become a teacher
5:15 – David as Amy’s first assistant principal
5:30 – engage and intrigue students
5:45 – first experiences in higher ed
6:10 – tech ed in the private sector
6:50 – coordinator of field placement – working with student teachers
7:05 – HOW to teach is the overarching theme and key component of the teaching and learning process
8:15 – Amy gave names to the PCs in her classroom
9:20 – don’t use technology gratuitously – have a rationale
10:05 – technology can enhance collaboration
10:30 – ask, “How will technology enhance learning?”
10:45 – Answer Garden, word clouds, discussions and connections between what surfaces via tech and human interaction and “wondering”
12:55 – you must establish structure, boundaries, and routines
13:05 – you must get to know your kids (your students, your learners)
13:35 – respectful dialogue is a precursor to learning
14:15 – what is a professional boundary?
15:05 – norms AND non-negotiables
16:00 – David’s interaction with students In School Suspension
17:50 – breaking convention for learner benefit
18:15 – am I enjoying what I am doing right now?
18:45 – if you are not connecting with your students, figure out why and work on adjusting what needs to change
19:35 – the "endless bulletin board”
19:55 – Think Tank and the Issue Fish
21:10 – an idea, borne out of panic
21:45 – be willing to dive in and try something – if it doesn’t work, try something else
22:00 – student work as an opportunity for affirmation
23:45 – what teacher-leadership looks like
24:20 – be a leader with those you lead
25:00 – intentional boundaries – individual and contextual, but consistent
25:15 – don’t take yourself too seriously – don’t feel sorry for your own failures
26:05 – an orchid named Spike
27:00 – everything good I learned about education, I learned in the barn
27:30 – first horse at age eight, competition, and lessons about good riding
27:45 – listening, waiting, life is not all about me
29:30 – grateful for the experiences I have had
30:05 – teaching or learning – which is more important?
30:15 – if we stop learning, we’ve given up
31:00 – find what happened good today
31:35 – learning and courage drive change
31:50 – be brave enough to learn something new or that’s different from what you expect
32:25 – I’ve had an amazing life (and I did want to serve in the military), but I really wouldn’t change anything
33:45 – why teach? To help people discover who they are, to facilitate a deeper level of understanding
34:45 – not to tell them what to think, but to teach students about their potential as thinkers
35:15 – working with professors on and retrieval practice and backward planning – adding pedagogy skill sets (the teaching craft) to content expertise
36:20 – an opportunity to positively impact future teachers
37:00 – I would not be the person I am today without my father (whose undergone an incredible transformation in his life), and Dr. Beverly Armento at Georgia State University (a mentor and amazing educator)
Links and other show details:
Music for Lead. Learn. Change. is Sweet Adrenaline by Delicate Beats
Podcast cover art is a view from Brunnkogel (mountaintop) over the mountains of the Salzkammergut in Austria, courtesy of photographer Simon Berger, published on www.unsplash.com.
Professional Association of Georgia Educators
Speaker 1 (00:11):
What matters most in learning the challenge, the thrill, the benefits, interacting with other people or something else entirely. What is the connection between leading and learning? Does change drive learning or does learning drive change? What's more important, teaching or learning? Is everyone a leader, a learner, a teacher, want answers? Listen in as we address these intriguing issues through commentary and with guests who share their thinking and tell us their stories. Lead, learn, change,
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Every never you utter in life becomes your roadmap. And one of my first nevers was in high school when I said, I will never be a teacher. I hate school and I love challenging them. I thought that really that was the way to engage them and intrigue them. You've got to set up your classroom with structure and boundaries, and then you have to get to know your kids. We also need to just support their development as people, as humans. Not to tell them what to think, but to teach them about their potential as thinkers. That's why I teach
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Today's guest on Lead Learn Change is Mrs. Amy Groper. Amy, thank you for taking your valuable time to speak with me today.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
You're welcome. I'm really excited to be here. David.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Amy and I last saw one another in 1996 or thereabouts, and that's almost hard to believe. We touched base briefly again in 2019 as this podcast got started. When I asked Amy if she would consider being a guest, she said Yes. And as patience is a virtue that carries a lot of weight, Amy demonstrated that particular great teacher quality during the three years since the guest request was made. So why did I ask Amy in the first place? Because Amy was one of the best second career educators I had ever met. And as I look back on the time it has elapsed since she and I worked together, I would only change that introduction a little to say, Amy is one of the best educators with whom I've ever worked first, second, or third career notwithstanding. And by best I mean thoughtful, thorough, creative, effective, measured and focused. So today we want to hear from you, Amy, about your experiences, your thinking, your approach, and what you've learned and observed in the past quarter of a century that keeps you teaching and leading. So let's get started by rewinding the clock a bit and tell us how you ended up being a teacher. You can go back to first career, Amy, or further than that if you'd like to paint a picture of your path towards teaching.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Well,
(04:47):
So when I realized that horses really weren't gonna be the thing that was gonna get me through my life, I went back to school and ended up moving towards becoming a, a middle school teacher that then really started my story. David, you were, you were my first assistant principal, so you saw me at the very beginning mm-hmm.
(05:53):
And that was my foray into higher ed, which is where I am right now. I also took a pretty large detour into the commercial world a little bit, doing teacher training for a large tech company, educational tech company. Uh, and I did that for about 10 years as well. And that was a lot of fun. I got to fly all over the country working with teachers and coaching them and specifically teaching them how to use technology in, in meaningful ways in the classroom. So not just gratuitous, but you know, ways that would enhance their instruction. And when I got tired of traveling, my current position just kind of magically appeared. And so now I am working as a coordinator of field placement at, uh, college, uh, here in North Florida. And it's small and I get to really know our student teachers and teach them and supervise them. I think if I were to look back and look at a theme, I think what connects all the dots is the how to teach part and how to approach the learning process. And I think that started all the way back to when I was 19 in San Diego, working with kids on horses and has sustained me all the way through. It's, for me, it's, it's really about the pedagogy and, and the, how
Speaker 3 (07:27):
You mentioned your technology component in there, teaching teachers technology tools and processes. And if you remember, we, we wrote a successful grant proposal for OWA Middle School when you and I were there and we titled it Project Bud Up, if I remember correctly. And the grant provided us with some PCs enough for a number of teachers per grade level to have a bank of four to six units in their room. That's my memory At that time, it was really quite innovative. And the only way most students had access to computers was to go to the school's computer lab, not have them in their classroom, or there might have been one in the classroom. So you had a number of your colleagues, I think Beth and Jennifer, if I remember right, had this bank of computers in the room and you named your PCs. I remember you had names of your
(08:19):
And I know that when that was implemented and you suddenly had additional technology capabilities in your room, that you really had to think differently about how you interacted with students because it created a different degree of content differentiation, or it created a different tier or another tier of lesson and unit prep. It makes you think about how do you assess student work because it's very different sometimes work that's generated on a computer versus not on a computer, and then timelines and all sorts of things. So grab onto any of those pieces that you think are meaningful and tell us how that particular experience shifted your practice.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Sure. I don't even remember that I named those computers. How funny.
(10:10):
It can enhance collaboration. I use it a lot to really, again, push students attitudes and, and learning and, and enhance what they know. So I always tell my college students, my pre-service teachers, what can we learn using technology? You know, how is it going to enhance instruction? Can we use Answer Garden to create a word cloud that then is going to present all of the important vocabulary for a unit of instruction we're about to present on a topic. Maybe take a, a paragraph in an introductory section of your text and drop it into, you know, a word cloud and, and get all of the, the main ideas and then have a discussion with that. So, you know, saying to your students, well, why are these words bicker? What do you think that means about the topic we're about to be discussing? What are some of the smaller words?
(11:19):
How do you think those are going to fit in? So, you know, using it to, again, engage your students, get them into that inquiry mindset, give them something to, to chew on and give them a really a stepping off point for wondering and starting to think more deeply about a topic. And I know that that's just kind of a roundabout answer, but I think that for me, technology is ubiquitous. I was once asked on a job interview many years ago, if I, I could only have my own teacher computer in the classroom and I could have one other thing, what would that be? And I said it, it would have to be a projector, because to me, just one computer is just as isolating as sitting in rows and doing individual seat work. I think the computer allows us to learn more collaboratively if we use it thoughtfully.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Technology notwithstanding, I heard you mention a number of things that really get at the heart of interacting with learners, and that's regardless of their age or the content area, young children or adults, like these teachers that you're working with now, what would you tell a, a new teacher are the most important steps they could take? Or maybe it's beliefs they need to embrace about creating the conditions for learning? It's not about the tool, it's about creating those conditions.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Yeah, it definitely starts in pre-planning,
Speaker 3 (14:43):
When you mentioned rules, based on everything you said, it sounds like norms Yes. Might be a more fitting term mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
I would say so. I, you know, I, I kind of step up and I have some non-negotiables.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
Sure, sure.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
And I, I put those out there and then I, you know, I, I bring in other, other opinions. But yes, I would say that, that that is accurate.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
You said earlier, I would never be a teacher then a short time after that, you found yourself on the path to becoming one
(16:20):
So I decided that instead of going in and just being an overseer of the, of the space and of the students that were there, that, you know, they'd made some poor choices. I didn't want them to have to sit there and be silent and that sort of thing, because I think I would actually change all of that now given what I've learned about engagement and disenfranchisement, et cetera. So instead of just going in and sitting and making sure they did whatever their assigned work was, I read to them and I read children's books. And these were middle schoolers, and they were the ones who were sort of the quote unquote toughest kids in the school most of the time. And I do remember specifically that my wife, Debbie, has a book from childhood called 50 Famous Fairy Tales,
(17:05):
And I read that book, both of those, like every time I was in there. And lots of times we had our frequent flyers and it was the same kids, and they would request the straw, the cold, and the bean, and squibbs and crackers as, as some of their favorite stories. And I had no problems when I was in there. And I think it wasn't about me. They had legitimate anticipation. I think that they were going to enjoy that 45 or 50 minutes for a change that aligns in my view with some of what you said about the conditions for learning. It's nice to have the nudge that you provided to look at our practices through a different lens and not just what's always expected or always traditional processes and procedures. I think you have to break convention every now and then if it's for learner benefit. Do you have any thoughts on that about breaking convention for, for learner benefit?
Speaker 2 (17:58):
I do. I'm sitting here quietly clapping, you know, as you're talking because I, I so believe in that. And I think one of the things that I've learned how to do is say to myself, am I enjoying what I'm doing right now and when I'm in front of a classroom? Because if I'm not enjoying it, surely my students aren't enjoying it. And, and something needs to change and that falls on my shoulders to make that change. That is an an important question to ask oneself as a reflective learner, to really assess yourself and assess the direction of your class. And if you feel that you are not connecting with your students, you need to make those changes. You need to start delving into what it is that is preventing that connection and work to move past that. And, you know, you don't connect every year in the same way.
(19:05):
You have different classes, you have different group of kids, different circumstances, and you naturally bond more some years than than others. And that's not necessarily what I'm talking about. I think it's more being able to generate that excitement for learning and knowing your, your individual students and also knowing yourself. When I think of, uh, well I think about the, the
(20:08):
And I had some of my, my homeroom students who were really artistic made fish for me. And I laminated all of it. And, and I made these bubbles and I laminated the largest of the bubbles. And I created this orange fish that I called the issue fish. And we would explore, because I was teaching social studies, we would explore different issues using the issue fish, and students had to write their own opinions on these laminated bubbles using the old transparency markers. We used to use vis-a-vis markers,
Speaker 3 (21:13):
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Because I had to do something with that board. I mean, really as I've moved away, I think back at that board all the time, and I think, gosh, I was, I was ticking off so many boxes with that board. It came out of my own need to have something interesting and interactive to fill up the room. Like everybody else's room was filled. So tying that back into what I was saying, I think that you need to be open to just diving in and doing something that's a little unconventional. If it feels like it's going to be right for your, what's going on inside your four walls in your classroom. And you'll know if it's, if it doesn't work, then you take it down, you do something else. But I remember my colleague's reaction to it and everyone was like, wow, what a great idea.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
There's another parallel. I I never want to teach. I never wanna be an administrator. And now you've covered your bulletin board with student work. So when I was at Forest Park middle school and junior high school and was meeting some classes on mechanical drawing or drafting, then before CAD came into being Uhhuh
(23:08):
And that's what I did. Because one of the expectations was make sure you have a changing bulletin board. I don't know if they actually knew it was changing because the papers looked the same, but it was student work. And I think it's that kind of risk that you say, I think I'll just bend convention a little. It's for the benefit of the learner, it's okay to do that. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Yes. I think teachers can be leaders. I have met many teachers who are tired and burnt out and have moved away from a leadership role. And I've seen a lot of teachers who step up and take on a leadership role. And I think that's very individual, and I think it ebbs and flows every school year. Mm-hmm.
(25:03):
And I think that's very individual and dependent on each situation and that consistency and the ability to not take yourself too terribly seriously. You know? I mean, I think you need to be able to walk away from something you just did and turn around and say, well, that did not go well at all.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
That's insightful. And I think people need to hear that you can lead from the role that you're in. It doesn't have to be an official role that's designated as a leadership or administrative position. Earlier we talked about you naming the computers in your classroom, and because you just said you also named the fish the issue fish. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Oh, it was a Sherry baby
Speaker 3 (26:35):
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Hmm. I used to, well, I still do. I say to people, everything good that I learned about education, I learned in the barn. I was a pretty angry kid. I kind of came into the world with a lot of fear, and then I covered that fear with a lot of anger. So, so there was like always this like, simmering stuff. And because of that, I didn't have a ton of friends, so I got a lot of what I needed in terms of interaction from the horses that I ended up riding. And I started at five, and I got my first horse when I was eight. And, you know, I was, I was terribly competitive. So I was at horse shows every weekend. And the things that, that I got from just really wanting to be a good writer were things like being quiet and listening and a lot of patience and that sense of just allowing something else to have space around me.
(28:14):
That life is not all about me. That I take up some space, but if I take up too much space, then I'm not allowing other people in. And so I think all of those were not necessarily specific at that time that I stepped away officially from riding. But I think as I matured into an adult, I started to be able to see, oh yeah, yeah, that's, that's what I used to do with, you know, duck my last pony. You know, I used to have to just kind of wait, you know, I'd give her a command and if she didn't respond right away, I didn't respond aggressively. I just waited for her to consider. It's the same thing we do in the classroom. It's the same thing we do when we want someone to not feel threatened. We ask a question and then we use wait time. So all of those things had kind of organically already formed in me by the time I got teaching. So I think writing has just been such a, an enormous part of who I am. And I'm so grateful to have had that because my childhood was, was bumpy like many peoples, and it gave me a lot of peace.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
Hmm. Let's extend that teaching learning concept for a second. Here's a question for you. Is one of those things more important teaching or learning?
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Hmm. You know, I think it's almost like a, a yin and a yang. You can't really have one without the other. If I had to choose, I would say learning is is more important because I think as a teacher, we're always learning. And the moment we choose to stop learning, we've metaphorically killed a big part of ourselves. You know, we've relegated ourselves to a specific place where we've given up. And I think if you're not learning, you are in a sense going, not going backwards, but you're just starting to deteriorate, if that makes sense. It's almost like the movie, SSH and Redemption has a wonderful line that Morgan Freeman says, and it's, you have to either get busy living or get busy dying. And that's always in the back of my mind. And it, it's not this hurried, rushed moment, it's just, uh, at the end of the day, just looking back on your day, what did I learn today? What, what happened today? That was good. So I think our, our lives in general are about learning. The teaching happens purposefully and, and not necessarily, you know, a also comes out of nowhere
Speaker 3 (31:14):
With the learning focus. Do you think that learning is what drives change? I'm going back to one of the quasi rhetorical questions in the introduction of the podcast. Or does change drive learning? Which way is it? Or is it both?
Speaker 2 (31:31):
Learning drives change for sure. I think learning and courage drive change, learning without courage is not nearly as effective. And by courage, I mean being able to be brave enough to learn something new that may be different from what you know or what you expect. And moving toward that anyway. If you feel fundamentally it's the right, the right thing to do. And I know I'm, I'm speaking very theoretically, but I feel like courage has a place in there between teaching and learning.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
Is there anything you would do differently in your career if you knew then what you know now?
Speaker 2 (32:23):
So far, I have had an amazing life. I think that sometimes I look back and I actually wish that I had had an opportunity to go into the military, which shocks everybody. I say that too because I'm kind of girly princessy, um,
Speaker 3 (33:13):
Sure. So two word question. Why teach? You've already referenced that in your remarks about your path to teaching, and now you're working with people who are getting ready to be teachers in their own classrooms, at their own schools. So that answer could be directed toward them as an inspirational message. Like, here's why it's important to teach. Or it could simply be more personal with, here's why I still teach mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
To me, the deepest part of teaching is to help people discover who they are. And we teach to facilitate a level of deeper understanding, whether it's who I am or how I am, or what two times two is, or any core content that we might learn in the classroom. To me, there's this underlying theme that also goes along with the very important curriculum. We are trying to teach our students to become informed citizens in our country, but I think along with the information, we also need to just support their development as people, as humans. Not to tell them what to think, but to teach them about their potential as thinkers. That's why I, I teach, and that's what I always say to my, my pre-service teachers as well.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
The potential question is always about something in the future. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
So, so I'm here at Flagler College. I don't know if I can, if I'm allowed to say that, but Sure. I'm very proud of being at Flagler. It's a wonderful private college here in St. Augustine and they have an awesome professional development department and they've asked me if I would do some seminars for other professors on retrieval practice and backward planning. So I'm really looking forward in the short term to getting back into working with in-service learners and really helping them hone their craft. They're teaching craft. It's always surprising to me that when we think of professors, we think of them as educators and teachers, but unless they're in the education departments or college of education, they haven't really had any formal training in how to teach. So I look forward to doing more of that work. You know, I'm really comfortable in this role. It's not a retirement role necessarily, but it just feels like a nice calm space where I can positively impact future teachers. And I like that. So I think I'm gonna just sit here for a while if I can.
Speaker 3 (36:36):
Is there anything else you would like to share? Something that we should have touched on and simply didn't? Anything at all?
Speaker 2 (36:42):
No, no, not that I can think of. I'll probably think of it as soon as we hang up.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
Yeah, that's the way that works. This last one then is, would you like to mention or thank a great teacher or two?
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Hmm. I would not be the person that I am today without two very distinct and different people. One is my father. He has gone through an incredible transformation in his life from being an addict to being in recovery for many, many years now. And his growth in changing has really informed a lot of my philosophy moving forward. The other individual is Dr. Beverly Armento, who was a professor in my undergraduate at Georgia State University and a mentor forever. And I did get to work with her as well when I went to higher ed the first time. She is just this amazing educator and someone I still aspire to be. And so definitely the two of them are very present in my personality.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
That's a great note to close on. I just wanna thank you for your time today and for your insights about teaching, leading, learning change. It's really thought-provoking wisdom and it comes from rich experiences, so we really appreciate you sharing those with us.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
Thank you very much. This has been great for me to get to know myself a little more too. Thanks David.
Speaker 3 (38:26):
Sure, Amy. So have a great day.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
You too.
Speaker 3 (38:33):
Thanks for listening today. Find the Lead Learn Change podcast on your search engine, iTunes or other listening app. Leave a rating, write a review, subscribe and share with others. In the meantime, go lead. Go learn. Go make a change. Go.