Deconstructing Education – Part 2 – the second of two episodes where Borborygmi: Food for Thought podcast hosts Vamsi Reddy and Akul Munjal and Lead. Learn. Change. podcast host David W. Reynolds wrap up a discussion about the educational system in America and touch on David’s experiences as a teacher and administrator.
Characteristics of a good teacher (2:15)
Students who love the teachers who love their students (3:05)
Knowing one’s students (3:45)
STAR program (5:45)
Hope for the future - great teachers and great students (7:45)
The filter for decision making that will lead to engagement and learning (12:15)
Targets for student engagement (16:00)
Authenticity as a key characteristic of work (16:30)
Listening to the students (17:00)
Who is it for? (18:00)
Responding to criticism that schools may not be preparing students properly (21:00)
Poor learners? (24:35)
Lessons learned during a career in education (28:30)
Common to all educators’ experiences (33:15)
Thank a teacher today (34:15)
MCG link: https://www.augusta.edu/mcg/
Borborygmi: Food for Thought podcast link: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/borborygmi-food-for-thought/id1507529435
Professional Association of Georgia Educators: www.pageinc.org
PAGE One magazine – The Promise of a Rising Generation: How Young Georgia Scholars are Impacting the World – see pages 10-16: https://issuu.com/pagemagazines/docs/page_one_jan_feb_2020_high_res
Engagement resources: www.schlechtycenter.org
David Reynolds: What matters most in learning? The challenge? The thrill? The benefits? Interacting with other people? Or something else entirely? What is the connection between leading and learning? Does change drive learning? Or does learning drive change? What's more important, teaching or learning? Is everyone a leader, a learner, a teacher? Want answers? Listen in as we address these intriguing issues through commentary and with guests who share their thinking and tell us their stories. Lead. Learn. Change.
For the second time, today's episode of Lead. Learn. Change. is provided by Akul Munjal and Vamsi Reddy, co-hosts of the Borborygmi podcast. Listen in as these two future physicians ask some very insightful questions. Questions that sometimes highlight the universal nature of good teaching and learning practices, whether their setting is in elementary school or medical school. Let's get started.
Vamsi Reddy: Welcome to Borborygmi: Food For Thought. My name is Vamsi Reddy, and I'm here with my co-host, Akul Munjal. We're excited for you to join us as we take a deep dive into the contemporary topics of medicine, philosophy, psychology, ethics, and so much more.
Akul Munjal: This is Akul Munjal. Before we get started, I just wanted to mention that we are medical students and none of the opinions expressed on this podcast reflect any organization or institution. Thanks for joining us.
Vamsi Reddy: Hi, everyone. Thanks for joining us again. This is part two of our multi-part series with Mr. David Reynolds. Thanks for joining us again, sir.
David Reynolds: Thanks for having me back. Glad to be here.
Akul Munjal: The first thing we just like to ask is what characteristics do you think make a good teacher?
David Reynolds: Well, I believe that you guys are just waiting to see what I say, because you already know the answer. I think that there's going to be some universal responses to this one, and I can confirm that by thinking about an event that our organization sponsors. The Professional Association of Georgia Educators has been a very long term sponsor of the STAR Awards for the STAR Student and STAR Teacher at each school, each district, and throughout the state. When you hear the finalists for the STAR Student Award speak each year about their teacher, the message is extremely consistent.
It's always that their teacher really knows them and likes them. They actually talk about, "I love my teacher." They say things like that. These are high school seniors, every single year, and they know about their teacher's interests, and they always talk about the teacher going out of the way to help them. So without exception, when I ask my podcast guests about their most memorable teachers, I hear the exact same message. These are people who sometimes are remembering teachers from 30, 40, 50, 60 years ago. I interviewed my parents recently, so they were remembering teachers from almost 80 years ago when my dad mentioned his first grade teacher.
So the greatest teachers, I think, really know their students and not just with regard to academic strengths, but they're aware of their interests. They know their students as people. Also, these teachers are approachable and accessible, and they never belittle anybody in front of anyone or even individually. They are really a champion for the underdog. I mentioned in part one that they really want their students to succeed, and I believe that.
Great teachers structure their classroom or their lab around learning and success, not just memorization practices or really rigid rules. They laugh with their students. They're humble. They're consistent. They're firm and they're fair. They can communicate content and concepts in more than one way. They're willing to provide you with multiple opportunities to get it and demonstrate what you know.
I have a educator colleague friend who, when he was in the classroom, gave his students the grade of A, B, or not yet. He would simply hang on to that opportunity for them to complete the work, as long as the bureaucratic administrative rules would allow him to do so, until they were submitting their best work and doing their absolute best. He really tried to avoid any students falling into the failing grade part of school and just kept saying "not yet, not yet", and give you another opportunity to get it right. I think those are the characteristics of the best teachers.
Vamsi Reddy: I think we can both agree to that just because of the teachers we've had in our lives and how engaging the great teachers have been. One thing you mentioned was the STAR Student Awards, STAR Teacher Award. I actually was fortunate and very lucky to receive that, become a STAR Student, when I was in high school. But for a lot of our listeners, they don't know what the STAR Teacher, STAR Program is. Could you detail a little bit what that is?
David Reynolds: The STAR Program recognizes the student at a high school with a highest SAT score. Then those students are pooled together in districts that have more than one high school, and there is a STAR Student for that particular school district. Then, districts are clustered by regions around the state, and there are regional winners of STAR, students with the highest SAT scores. They also submit some information that talks about them as a student. Part of the process is they nominate, or identify, their STAR Teacher. Their STAR Teacher can be any teacher they have ever had. It doesn't have to be someone from that year.
So multiple times, at the banquet, for example, at the award ceremony, we will see students bring with them, because the teacher attends, teachers from middle school, or a coach that maybe never even taught them in class, but really impacted their life. Sometimes it's someone from elementary school. Occasionally it's even been that own student's parent. Sometimes, what's really amazing, is you see the same teachers showing up year after year after year. I remember one year, that whoever the STAR Teacher was, was there for their fourth or fifth time. So the students from that school always ended up gravitating towards this particular person because they were such an outstanding teacher. So that award can be given multiple times.
Jackson was a STAR Student as well, and of all the memories from high school that I think he values highest, being the STAR Student and being able to identify his STAR Teacher was one of those. I really believe that. So it's just an opportunity for us as an organization to say, look, there are great things happening in schools. There are great teachers out there. There are amazing students. The teachers love the kids. The kids love the teachers. This is an opportunity to celebrate that and highlight that for people.
The interviews that we have at the state award ceremony are absolutely wonderful to listen to. They're sometimes hilarious, always insightful, and you always leave thinking, "Wow. Look at the hope I have now for the future." If you spend too much time in front of the news, you will get so depressed. But if you go to an event like this and you say, "Wait a minute. It's not all gloom and doom." There are thousands of students out here who are going to make the biggest impact. Then there are also thousands of teachers who are going to continue to work with the next wave of students who are going to do exactly the same thing. It's one of the greatest examples of the perpetuation of possibility that exists anywhere, and I think it's a fantastic program.
Akul Munjal: That's a really interesting tie into one of the things that we talked about last week, which was standardized tests. I'm just curious about... I guess this has kind of already been answered to a degree. Vamsi was a STAR Student and he's doing pretty well. Jackson was also a STAR Student and he's also doing pretty well. We talked about how standardized tests aren't necessarily the most predictive thing. How have you seen, people that have won the STAR Student Award, how have they, I guess, done in the future?
David Reynolds: We don't have comprehensive tracking data on that, but I did look through just by chance in the past couple of weeks, some older issues of our organization's publication, the PAGE One Magazine. There was a column in there, a feature, a few times, that was... It wasn't titled, Where Are They Now. Maybe it was. But something along those lines. It did highlight some former recipients of STAR, and they were giving their testimonial, so to speak, about the value of that experience and how they still remembered it to this day. Most of these people were successful business people.
So there has been an effort to follow up on some of those people, and the ones that we have followed up on are being very successful. They're making a difference in their communities and they still get back on that fondly. But I cannot sit here and say we have data on, you know, 3000 STAR Students and they're all Nobel Laureates. But whatever they're doing, we're quite confident they're doing a great job.
They were so articulate and so focused, not driven in a type A personality sort of way, but just focused on making a difference. There's a recent issue of our PAGE One Magazine, now that you bring that up. I believe it's February, March of this year, but I'm not sure. It highlights young students, even middle school, who are really focused on making a difference for another group of people with severe challenges that they face. Solving real problems. It's absolutely fascinating. I can include a link in the show notes for us later, if you'd like me to. It's really another example of the great things that are happening in schools with students and with quality teachers. The STAR Teacher program is just one of those instances where we get to highlight that. It's a really great thing to be able to do.
Vamsi Reddy: It's completely fascinating to see how engaging and how meaningful this STAR program has been for students. Now speaking about, turning from students to the actual educators. Based on your experience, is there any advice that you would have for educators in any setting to engage their students?
David Reynolds: I'm glad you used the word "engaged" because that is the key. Engagement is the foundational component of learning. So broadly, as a sweeping broad brush kind of advice, I would say that it's really this one thing. That as an educator, you should make all of your decisions through one filter. The filter is, to what extent will doing X, fill in the blank, to what extent will this decision increase the likelihood of student learning and success? That might be, we're looking at identifying instructional materials or resources that we need to have our students have access to. Or it might be we're going to look at a budget and decide where we're going to place dollars that will benefit students in the supportive learning. Or, if you think back to elementary school, we're going on a field trip, we're going on a study trip somewhere. Really look at that and say, if we do this, yes, it should be enjoyable. But the aim of school is not to provide an enjoyable experience for everyone. It's to prepare them for whatever's next.
So while you're doing this in a way that appeals to students and their interests, regardless of age and level of sophistication, you still have to ask if we go to this place, or if we bring in this speaker, if we provide access to these resources, or if we structure this project in this way, what's the likelihood that doing that is going to increase student engagement, student learning, and student progress? If you do that, you can't go wrong. So more specifically, because that's broad, just ask that question for everything that you do. But more specifically, teachers need to design experiences that appeal to a variety of student interests. You can't do that if you don't know that the students, which we talked about earlier as a quality or characteristic of a great teacher.
So some students thrive on choice, and some thrive... You know, I want to be able to read this book, not that book. I don't want to do a book report. I'd rather do a skit. I don't want to do either one of those things. I would rather do something. I'd rather go interview somebody next door and turn in this CD, or make a PowerPoint or whatever. But providing some choice for how you demonstrate what you know, or what you learn. Some thrive on novelty and variety, and they drift off if, every single day, it's exactly the same. They want to have something different go on. Others really thrive on affiliation, interacting with other people. That doesn't mean count off by fours and all the ones work together. We're doing, quote/unquote, group work. Now we're affiliating, and we're speaking to that student's need to have a meaningful interaction with others. That might not be meaningful interaction.
I'm sure I could flip this around and ask the two of you about some group work and medical school, and you might have less than wonderful experiences to share in addition to some good ones. But I'm sure there's some there that were not so great, and that didn't really feel like affiliation. It just felt like a compliance piece. Or affirmation. Some people really want their work to be acknowledged, but it has to be for people that matter to them. So if you put my work out in the hallway, that may be great for somebody next to me. But I may really want to take that home and show it to my parents. But if all I ever do is put it on the wall and then it's torn down and then the next artwork is put up or the next report, it never goes home, that's not appealing to my affirmation need. That's appealing to somebody else who wants some other students to see it in the hallway.
So you have to know your students, know what appeals to them, and over time embed those qualities of work into the experience so that everybody is engaged as often as possible. It is not realistic to say that every student should be engaged all the time. That is not real life. That's not how it works. But no student should move through an entire semester, or hopefully even a project or a giant unit or a year, and not be engaged. That would be problematic. And as far as all the characteristics of work that appealed to learners, the one that matters most, I believe, is, probably, it's got to be authentic. It has to have some value. You don't want to do things that have no value. If there's no benefit to it, and you see no use for it, you might do it out of compliance because you don't want to get in trouble or you want to get a good grade. But you're not really engaged in it. Those are different things. So, has to be for the service of learning. It needs to be authentic.
And then, every decision made in a school has to be for the benefit of students, not for the convenience of adults. Or at the higher level, where the students are adults, like medical school, not for the benefit of an administrative structure or a bureaucracy, or to perpetuate a process that simply repeats itself historically every year, because that's the way we've always done it. So a key to all of this is to talk with the people that are the learners in the situation. That might be peers, or it might be your students, but you have to talk with them. Also you have to listen to them, and you've got to be willing to shift.
As a teacher, I may think that I have created something that's just outstanding. I did that once as an administrator. I pulled together a single page document that coalesced multiple frameworks on a single sheet of paper. I was so proud of myself. I thought, wow, this is fantastic. Anybody who uses anything on this paper here, whether its column A, column B, or column C, or however it was set up, they are going to think this is a greatest thing since sliced bread. Their problems are solved. So I shared it with a colleague of mine and he sent it back and he said, "Well, David, I think it's great if you're the customer." Yeah. If this is for you, then it's really good. But if that's not for somebody else, then it's not necessarily great for them.
So I have to think just because I liked this unit, or I thought that this is the greatest lecture I've ever given, or that students five years ago really enjoyed that trip to, fill in the blank. That might not be the right thing, now. It goes back to that original question. What's the likelihood that doing this is going to increase student learning, student engagement, and student progress? I can't know about your level of engagement if I don't ask.
If I look at the two of you now, since we're on a Zoom call and we can see each other, and I see you looking down and writing notes, I might think, "Well, I just said something really profound and they're writing this down because they don't want to miss that quote. They're going to go back to it, and it's going to be all over social media." You might be writing your grocery list because you just thought of something you need to get. I have no idea. But it looks like you're engaged. You know? So, just nodding your head. You might have your Bluetooth in and be talking to somebody else, and I think you're just into it. Or you could be moving to music. If you don't talk to your students or the people learning, you really don't know for sure.
I have another colleague, the lady who's featured in the first episode of Lead. Learn. Change., and she had this great unit with third or fourth graders that she was working with. It was about newspapers. Students created the newspaper and got to put the stories in it, and all that sort of thing. Because it had choice in there and working with each other and they seemed excited about it, she thought it was great. When she asked them about it when they were done, they really didn't like it. Hardly anybody liked it, and she thought it was fantastic. So she had to step back and say, wait a minute. Last year's group liked it. This year's group didn't. I thought it was fun, but I never really thought about the learners. I had another idea. I could do this. I could do that. I could do this. Not, "Is this going to move the students toward learning?"
So I think those are the key questions. That goes back to that same filter every single time. You really do have to embed opportunities with interaction with significant others, and the community of learners really matters. You're trying to solve problems. You're trying to make sure that students have access to resources, and that it's an academically and physically and socially, emotionally safe environment in which to do it. Those things combined constantly running through the filter of "How's this going to help students?", that's what makes engagement happen.
Akul Munjal: How do you respond to criticisms of education that say that education doesn't prepare students for the next step of life, like taxes and personal finance?
David Reynolds: Some of the response might be tied to the fact that there's so much pressure placed on schools and educators to have a good test score, that the emphasis of content focus ends up falling in those areas that aren't going to be able to be tested, like your ability to actually develop a budget to live on, or a way to make decisions about your overall health, which is very different than can you add these numbers together, which can be tested very easily. Or can you identify which of the following sets of foods are the most healthy? That can be tested very easily. Those are two very different things. So part of it is there is an overemphasis on generating a score that a school or an educator is going to be, or a student is going to be judged by to indicate the quality of their experience.
The other thing is you need to push back on that sometimes and ask a question about positive experiences at the particular school in question. Because people do want to paint with a broad brush and they may say this thing is just full of problems. I can't do this particular work. I had a colleague that brought a spreadsheet to me one time and said, "This does not work." So I asked, "What doesn't work?" And, "Well, it's just everything." "Well, show me something specifically." It turned out it was predictive text being populated in the cell on the Excel spreadsheet that kept filling in somebody's name when they hit that second letter. They thought that it wouldn't allow them to type the rest of the name. They just stopped. It was something that simple. Then when I pushed further, after we resolved that problem, there wasn't another problem at all. So sometimes it's just a global sweeping criticism without a lot of foundation. So I would ask for specifics.
The other thing I would do is to identify places. If I were asked that question, I can easily point to many places, many schools, many classes where those things are taught. It goes back to that authenticity design quality that we mentioned earlier.
So as an educator, being prepared to not defend or convince, but just explain and highlight the places where those skills are indeed taught. And they may not... The students may be able to do that, but that's not something that the general public at large might know. Not to be dismissive of anybody who doesn't have their foot in the school house door every day. But if you don't questions, like if you don't ask the learner, "Did you enjoy that?" If you don't really ask the educator for examples of when they are embedding authentic experiences into the classroom so that students have access to those sorts of experiences, then you really don't know, and that's really uninformed. So you can conflate the wrong metrics with what's actually happening. I think the way to address that is through specific questions and specific examples. You really have to talk about real things, not sweeping, broad brush judgements.
Vamsi Reddy: That's very true. We've talked a lot about educators and how to be a good educator, how to engage their students. But is there ever a such thing as a poor learner? Or is it they're just an environment in which, the learner, it isn't conducive to the learner's learning?
David Reynolds: We would all agree, I believe, that we all learn. So taking out of the equation someone who is challenged with a physiological issue that prevents them from learning in a normal way, in a healthy way, take that out of the equation. We all learn. Even people with significant medical or physiological challenges also learn. People might not learn what it is that we are expecting them to learn, sometimes, or at the same pace, or in the same way, or may not be able to necessarily articulate it. And we do need to provide them with opportunities to demonstrate what they know, but we all learn. So I don't think we can say there is a poor learner. I think you have to get at what it is that uncovers what that student has learned.
There's a great book. It's called If She Only Knew Me. It's by Heather Thomas and Jeff Gray. It's written from the perspective of a student in poverty. It's very short, maybe a thousand words, something like that. Near the end, maybe the final page, is a single set of prose, a list of bulleted items, that talks about all the things that this student knows, that his teacher doesn't know. It says something like I know a lot more than she thinks I know. It is about I know how to find the best bargains on used clothes at which flea market on the weekend. I know how to survive without electricity or running water for two weeks. I know where you can buy the cheapest soft drink, and all these other things that this student knows how to do.
That's sort of like the question that you posted just a moment ago about not being able to balance a checkbook or some of those sorts of things, create a budget. There are these life skills that people have. So what the student knows is really important. I don't think it's a poor learner thing. I would think that, inside the givens of the content that needs to be conveyed to students, the understandings that they have to obtain and what they need to learn, that the primary enabler of engagement is the learning experience that appeals to the interest and needs of the students. In order to do that, you have to know your student, or your patient, or your client. Doesn't matter what field you're in.
You can't maximize anyone's learning or their progress in the absence of solid relationship. I do not believe that there are poor learners or non learners. I really do think it's a joint responsibility to uncover what it is that appeals to the motives of the learner and make that work. Again, we talked in episode one, maybe, of this conversation, might've been in this second segment, about the different physicians that you've worked with in your rotations. I'm going to assume that what I've just said applies in that sort of situation as well.
Akul Munjal: All right. So a lot of what you said makes a lot of sense. It doesn't seem like there's such thing as a poor learner. I think that a lot of people will learn best in different situations and maybe people haven't necessarily found the situation that works best for them. But what is an interesting story that you would like to share with us and our listeners, from your extensive career, that you would be willing to share?
David Reynolds: Well, there are a lot of anecdotes and I think some of them are interesting. But I think maybe the most valuable response would be to share just a couple of highlights, almost chronologically, and summarize what those experiences combined have taught me. So let me move through about 40 years of content or memory swiftly.
I did already tell you that after my first year, I quit teaching. So I think that's kind of an interesting story from my career. That was a pretty significant change. When I went back, a few years after I went back to the classroom, I had been teaching eighth graders and ninth graders, high school freshmen. Then the configuration of the grade levels in the schools changed, where I was working, and I lost my high school freshmen and I picked up sixth graders. That was quite a shock to me because there's a huge difference between people who are getting their learners licenses, learner's permits to drive, and someone who just left elementary school a few weeks earlier. So that was quite a shock.
Also after about five or six years of teaching, I was in sixth, seventh, eighth grade environment, the entire, all the subject matter that I had been trained for changed in a moment. I mean, a truck literally backed up to the industrial arts lab. The garage door was raised. Giant 220 volt electrical cords were cut, and all of the machines and the equipment were gone. They were moved out in a day, and I just had this empty hall of a space. We reconfigured that, the next summer, over that summer. The curriculum changed from industrial arts to explorations in technology. So everything I had trained for and had taught for a couple of years was over in a moment. So that was pretty significant.
Then I learned from students, in the course of this, I learned how to do Microsoft PowerPoint from two sixth graders. When I was an assistant principal, they showed me how to do it. I had a presentation I had to make for the school. I had no clue. They taught me, and that stuck with me, and obviously transferred to other experiences and opportunities later. Also had a friend, the same gentlemen, Phillip Brown, who used to grade A, B, and not yet, who became the principal of a college and career academy. I went to visit him one day and couldn't find him in his office.
He had, in fact, given up his office in the front of the school and allowed it to be used for parent and student groups and found this little tiny windowless closet in the center of the school for his office. It was such a abysmal environment that he found that he did not want to stay there at all, which kept him out and about in the school all the time. But in addition to that little insight he had, he also was a teaching principal. So he had a full-time class that he taught while he was a principal. I found him outside in the parking lot with the students teaching. I thought that was extremely impressive.
Then on the first day or two of my assistant principal job, my first assistant principal job, we were moving equipment and books and materials out of the gymnasium that had been stored for renovation, because of renovation, all summer, back into the building. I took the school's photocopier and knocked it off of its table and crashed into the ground and broke it the day before school started. I'm a new AP. Nobody knows me. I destroyed the photocopier that teachers wanted to use, and that just did not win me a whole lot of friends.
Then did a lot of other things. I developed a budget, which I hadn't done before. Chaired a disciplinary tribunal, which was not enjoyable, but a necessary skill. Then, when I was a first year principal, I followed a principal who had been the school's only principal for 25 years. So there was a lot of tradition and a lot of familiarity. Then you step into that role, and that was a huge learning experience. One of those experiences was there were seven students in that school who had life-threatening dairy or peanut allergies, and a whole protocol had to be developed to make sure that we avoided any major catastrophe or harm to a student that year. Then I've worked with teachers around the state for the last 10 or 15 years. I've even had a chance to work and interact with some teachers in Dubai a couple of times, and that was very, very interesting.
So there's many stories like that. I think that my experience is unique to me, and the specifics are mine, but the overarching concepts are familiar to all educators. I think those include change is inevitable, the unexpected should be expected. You can learn a whole lot from each other, including your students. You have to be flexible, adapt, think on your feet. You have to keep student benefit as the focus of your work. And the overwhelming super majority of educators really are dedicated individuals who commit their careers to helping others as part of their life's work.
That's what I've taken away from all those events because, when I destroyed the copier, people were only disappointed for a little while. They weren't really mean to me for the rest of my time at that school. They got over it. So I do see this resilience of the human spirit and willingness to be forgiving and move ahead. I think that's what teachers do. They move ahead. Wherever you are, that's where you are, and we're going to move to the next step.
Vamsi Reddy: It sounds like you've had such a fascinating career. As someone who has been a lifelong educator, you've also been a lifelong learner. Is there anything that you would like to leave our listeners with? Any pearls of wisdom?
David Reynolds: Every time I have an opportunity to have an open mic like this, I always say, take 5, 10, 15 minutes today to identify somebody who has taught you something in the past. It might be a teacher at school. It might be a family member or someone else. But if someone's taught you something and it has really benefited you, or you really appreciated it, and made you never said thanks. Or even if you did, say it again. Take time to find somebody, make a phone call, send an email, send a text message, do something, post it on social media if you really want to give them a shout out and they're willing to have their name out there that way. Thank somebody for what they've done for you. Thank a teacher. That's what I would leave people with.
Akul Munjal: Thank you for joining us, Mr. Reynolds. And thank you to all of our listeners. Before we go, would you just like to give a plug to your own podcast and share with the listeners what it's about?
David Reynolds: Sure, thanks. Again, I appreciate being here with you guys today. I do invite the audience to listen Lead. Learn. Change. podcast. Just scroll through some of those episode descriptions and listen to a segment or two. Then leave a rating. Post a review. Share it with somebody. That's always appreciated. You can find it on any podcast platform.
And I've started dabbling in Instagram. So at some point, Lead dot Learn dot Change on Instagram would also be a place that people could find out a little bit about the work, or maybe lift some quotes, or see some of the guests who are a part of the podcast.
Vamsi Reddy: Awesome. Thank you so much again for joining us.
David Reynolds: Thank you both. Have a great day.
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