Creative on Purpose founder Scott Perry shares his thinking about finding meaning in one's work, and highlights core principles that maximize the impact of one's service to others. Today's guest emphasizes why relationships are vital to the teaching process, and how collaboration is a critical element of change. Author Scott Perry believes that we can all lead from where we are if we truly know "What's now?" and "What's next?"
Self-help? (3:12)
"We must, when we can, teach others" (5:00)
Learn to blunder in order to learn (7:43)
Finding meaning and purpose (9:57)
The "right people" – pluses, minuses, and equals (12:35)
Anonymous criticism vs. meaningful feedback (15:12)
Encourage engagement (16:33)
Teaching vs. instructing (17:07)
Status quo, certainty, curiosity, and creativity (18:37)
"I still love teaching" (25:52)
Discomfort & frustration, and living & learning (27:58)
David:
What matters most in learning? The challenge, the thrill, the benefits, interacting with other people or something else entirely. What is the connection between leading and learning? Does change drive learning? Or does learning drive change? What's more important? Teaching or learning. Is everyone a leader, a learner, a teacher? You want answers, listen in, as we address these intriguing issues to commentary and with guests who share their thinking and tell us their stories. Lead, learn, change.
Scott Perry:
You don't need the world to follow. You just need a few of the right people to come along on that journey with you, and you can make significant change happen. Before you became a good writer you did a lot of bad writing. Before you became a good walker you did a lot of bad walking. If it can be written down and people can be walked through a process without a human being, then that's the way that should be done. You can find passion, purpose, and meaning through any work that's immediately ahead of you. I'm not convinced that why is where we should start. I really believe that it's far more important to start with who. It's work that's worth it and work that we should be grateful for and appreciate just having the opportunity to be engaged in.
David:
Today, we are looking at leading, learning and change from a somewhat philosophical perspective. Yet our guest leverages his thinking in highly practical ways. You are encouraged to view your own work, whether you are an educator, coach, parents, or entrepreneur, through the lens of purpose, happiness, and service to others. Have you recently taken stock of where you are in your career and in life? Do you know what you believe the next step should be for your work and for your contributions to those you serve? Let's dive right in. Today's guest on lead, learn change is Scott Perry. Scott, thank you for spending time with us today,
Scott Perry:
David, it is a thrill to be with you, and I really appreciate the opportunity to be speaking with you.
David:
You're most welcome. Scott is the founder of Creative on Purpose and the author of a handbook about the same name. The book by the way is a number one top seller in Self-Help Short Reads on Amazon, which is no small accomplishment. Scott's also the author of a book titled Endeavor, another Amazon top seller. Last but not least, Scott is a husband, father, teacher, musician, YouTuber, blogger, and a coach in Seth Godin's Akimbo Workshops. In fact, that's where Scott and I connected via an online Akimbo community conversation. Scott, I'd like to start with the phrase self-help because you found that while we can and should want to learn and improve and sit and reach goals, you have a slightly different approach to this whole notion of self-help. You place an emphasis on the word help, less on the word self, and you view it through a different lens. Can you talk to us about that?
Scott Perry:
Sure. Well, in the sales copy of endeavor, I hit upon this idea that I'm not writing a self-help book. I'm writing what I call a help others book. And it's based on my assertion, made an endeavor and really everything that I read about at Creative on Purpose on the blog. This idea that we enhance our lives most through work that has done with and for other people that helps them achieve their goals, dreams, and aspirations. And that perspective it's based on ancient Stoic philosophy.
David:
Well, that makes me want to ask you about where you see teaching fit into this help others versus self-help. And I know you're headed off to teach some young people, some guitar lessons today at the end of this conversation. So how do you see teaching fit into this self-help others notion?
Scott Perry:
I think everybody is a teacher and through the act of engagement are sharing information, sharing experiences, and modeling behavior experiences that other people are taking in and processing and filtering through their own experiences and observations. And everybody's taking something away from those exchanges. Again, circling back to Stoic philosophy. That comes from the writings of Marcus Aurelius and his journal, The Meditations. That we must when we can teach others, especially those that are unaware of what it is that is impeding their own progress, which very often obviously is themselves. And I don't know what your experience is like David, but I find that usually the biggest obstacle and in my getting to where I want to go is the person that looks back at me when I look into our mirror.
Scott Perry:
We have this amazing ability to see what others don't see in their own endeavors, but at the same time are unable to see the things that are impeding our own progress. Which is at the heart of the work I do with Seth Godin and the Akimbo Workshops. I mean, what we're really there for is to help people in many ways get where they want to go by helping them get out of their own way. By helping them see the things that they don't yet see. Once they see them, they can't unsee them. And hopefully progress could then be made.
David:
Well, talking about helping others and looking in the mirror, it really does connect to another concept that you highlight in your book. And that is the idea of feedback, especially how feedback intersects with progress, success. And I put this in quotation marks, "blundering." I think that's a term I lifted from something that you wrote. So dig into that concept a little, because I think it's a great follow-up to what you just shared.
Scott Perry:
So I wrote a blog post called blender going our way towards success. And it's based largely on my experience of developing this enterprise called Creative on Purpose after I graduated from Seth Godin's altMBA 6. I came out of that program a transformed person with a deep desire to do more and better for myself and others, but not really sure about like what that project was going to be. So I just began to speak and to type through my blog and to have conversations through my broadcast with people whose work I respected, whose opinions I valued. People that I aspire to be more like, and it was through this process of, for lack of a better word blundering my way forward that I was able to pick up the experience and the feedback necessary to help me clarify not just what Creative on Purpose is, but also who specifically it's intended to help. And what promise I'm trying to make to the people that I seek to serve.
Scott Perry:
So another way of thinking about this is just the way that you have learned to do anything important, you did by blundering your way to success. When you were a baby, you saw that people were doing this talking thing and it seemed to be a vehicle for helping them get what they wanted to get and be understood and be seen and to make each other laugh. So you decided that you wanted to become a talker. Well, you did a lot of blundering, bad talking before you became a good talker. Before you became a good writer, you did a lot of bad writing before. Before you became a good walker, you did a lot of bad walking. And as children, we don't let the fact that we're failing our way forward bother us too much, that we don't take a lot of ego hits just because we didn't get it right the first time.
Scott Perry:
It's really amazing to me is as adults or even adolescents, we start to be much more concerned about how we look to others and it impedes our ability to take chances and to go ahead and blunder into some possibility where we seek to excel. So for me, I just like embracing the things that are hard. Yes, at blundering and failing can be challenging. It can raise emotions that are difficult to contend with, but at the same time, if it's the only way forward, then it's the only way forward. We might as well lean into that discomfort so that we can push through it. And we can go from being blundering to being somewhat or to excel in some better way. Just to the process of trying and doing.
David:
So, how would somebody then decide what it is that they want to blunder towards, what they want to address and make better or cost to change, whether it's for themselves or somebody else? How does a teacher, how does a coach pull that to the surface for a learner so that they have a focus?
Scott Perry:
That is a great question. And it is a question that comes up often. So we have this idea that things like meaning and purpose and passion are intrinsic to certain endeavors that it's in the work itself. And if we could just find the work that will provide us with meaning and passion and purpose, then we'll be okay. It actually doesn't work that way. You can find passion, purpose, and meaning through any work that's immediately ahead of you. It can happen through that conversation you're about to have with your sibling or your spouse or your parent. It can happen through the simple act of preparing a meal. It can happen in your daily work, no matter how mundane or how much you feel like all you're really doing is pulling leavers and pressing buttons according to the directions. You can do that work in a way that will lead to a greater sense of fulfillment, meaning and purpose.
Scott Perry:
And so for me, that's the first thing, is if you lean into any enterprise, any endeavor with the right mindset and posture, meaning, purpose and passion are going to be natural outcomes of that. I also think it's really important. I have this mantra that I've been repeating quite frequently, recently, in the face of the current cultural mantra, which is this idea of start with why. But I'm not convinced that why is where we should start. I really believe that it's far more important to start with who, and that means that we must start with you. You must start with yourself. If you need to know who you are, what are your basic values? What are your guiding principles? Then you need to align yourself with people that share those values. And at the same time, you need to also be aware of what your innate talents are, what your skills are.
Scott Perry:
And I think that where you belong is with people who share your values and need your talents, either as collaborators or to enhance their lives in some way. And if you get those three things right. Who you are, your values. What you do, your talents. Where you belong, your tribe. The intersection of those three circles is very likely where you can find what I call the work you're meant to do now.
David:
Talking about who, people, relationships being the most important. And of course you have to know what you're about in order to create those alignments, but you also need to know the other people. So how do you identify the right people to help you get the work done that you're focusing on or to help other people do what they need to accomplish?
Scott Perry:
Yeah. That's a great question. And I want to say that this idea that we want to work with the right people does not come with any value, judgment about who the wrong people might be. Because the people that are right for you might not be right for somebody else because people are people. And I really believe in the idea that unless you are a clinically diagnosed sociopath or psychopath, everybody is doing the very best that they can. And that they're doing what they think is right based on their experiences and their observations and their perception in any given moment. And you can't find "the right people." And the right people are first of all, going to be people who do share similar values.
Scott Perry:
There's the Jim Rohn quote, "You're the average of the five people that you spend the most time with." I don't think that means you have to dump all your loser friends and try to upgrade. I think what it means is you should be intentional about where you're putting your energies, where you're investing your time and who you are associating with and connecting with, who you aspire to be more like. I also like the Frank Shamrock Plus, Minus, Equals approach. Frank Shamrock is a martial arts artist and a teacher. And he suggests to his students that they should have pluses are the people that are teaching you. Your heroes, your mentors, the people that you aspire to be more like. The minuses, those are the people that are not as far along in your endeavor as you are. And those are people that you should actually be treating as students and teaching them and helping them. Because the act of teaching helps you, number one, practice, the things that you do understand to do well.
Scott Perry:
It also will point out the holes in your learning that need to be addressed. And then the equals are the people that are at, or near the same level as you, that are the people that you are training with, that you're practicing with. A third way that I've been thinking about a lot lately is what are others like outside of your circle? What can they teach you? What can they offer you? We often in the digital age, we'll put stuff online and have complete strangers commenting on our work. And I think that it's important to separate that kind of anonymous criticism coming from unknown sources, from meaningful feedback. It doesn't mean that criticism can't be useful and can't be helpful, and can't be correct. But I think especially at the beginning of any enterprise, you want to associate with and seek feedback from people that know you and are invested in your journey towards excellence in whatever enterprise that you're engaged with.
Scott Perry:
So those are just some of the ways that I think about associating yourself with "the right people."
David:
So if you are in a teaching situation, coaching situation, then you obviously have learners and students in that same circle with you. And you have a mutual purpose at trying to get to a certain point to move people forward, enhanced learning. So what would a teacher do? What does a coach do inside that circle with learners that makes his or her teaching right? Or best for the learner?
Scott Perry:
I think about this a lot. And we talk about this a lot within the coaching cohort of the Akimbo programs, because we are there not as content experts. Seth does not give us the answer key. There is no answer key. There are no absolute right answers. And our job is not so much to let students know when they understood or didn't understand the lesson. Or when they're doing it "right or wrong," but to encourage them to engage with the process and engage with each other in the pursuit of better understanding of the concepts and the postures that we're trying to encourage. So the idea of being a teacher becomes very different than the idea of being an instructor. An instructor is someone I think of who has training in something and is dripping out that information in a way that is sequenced and put into some sort of curriculum.
Scott Perry:
And the truth is that kind of teaching is the kind of thing that's going to be done by AI bots in the very near future. It's already being done, because if it can be written down and people can be walked through a process without a human being, then that's the way that should be done. Teaching on the other hand, I think of as being a very invitational type of process, where you're inviting people and creating tension that encourages the student to lean forward and lean into possibility on their own or with you as a trusted guide. So that they are making progress in a way that they could not make necessarily on their own, or they cannot make by just simply following the directions and collecting the dots.
David:
You mentioned leaning forward in order to make progress. So are there any common threads inside creative work as people lean into what's possible, and so that they can have this success in this growth mindset? And tell us how come you value creativity over overconfidence?
Scott Perry:
The way I'm defining and using creativity is the act of bringing things into the world that didn't exist before. So we are talking about changing the status quo. So changing the status quo is something that's really challenging because we like to know where we stand. And we like to know what's expected. Status quo rewards certainty, and rewards confidence. The creative person is trying to make change happen, which means that they are in opposition or at least somewhat rebelling against the status quo. And that means that there is no certainty in that posture. And they're able to do that if they have a mindset that's more curious than competent. And if they also have a posture of doing something, even though the outcome is not assured.
Scott Perry:
And so those are two core principles of the creative on-purpose approach. The first is curiosity. This idea of wonder. The idea that things could be better. And I wonder if, and then the second principle is a commitment to do something. And then the third is courage to step into possibility. And then the last is collaboration because if change is going to happen, it's going to have to be done with four other people. So collaboration is a necessary part of that. Those four principles are all done in the service of some sort of creative endeavor, some sort of motivation to try something new, to see if we can make things better.
David:
What is Scott Perry's definition of leadership?
Scott Perry:
That's a great question. A very powerful tool for me in terms of this idea of learning something, is to in given situation or circumstances say, "What's now? And what's next?" But what's now piece is trying to take a clear-eyed zoomed out view of what's really going on here and also accepting that, that's what's going on here. And as I'm looking at that, I am thinking about what a better possibility might be. And then I'm thinking about what's the smallest step I can take? What's now? What's next? So there's a quote by Viktor Frankl. For those who don't know, Viktor Frankl, he was a concentration camp survivor in World War II. Survived I think seven different death camps. And there's a quote attributed to him that there's no proof that he ever actually said, but it sounds like something he would say, which is, "Between stimulus and response, there is a pause. And within that pause is your power to choose. And within your choice lies your growth and your freedom."
Scott Perry:
And taking a pause instead of just reacting to what's going on, what's the response I can have that will promote my health and wellbeing. And at the same time, promote the health wellbeing and happiness of anybody else involved. A leader is somebody that has that posture, who also has the courage to stand up and say, "This is who I am. This is what I believe. This is where I'm going and I would love for you to join me." And that doesn't require authority. It doesn't require a title. It's the kind of thing that you can do as an employee of a large organization. As a kid in a classroom, you had the agency, the ability to choose how you see things and what you decide to do next. And if you do that in a way that's visible and seen by others, then you are leading. And it doesn't mean that the world is going to follow, but you don't need the world to follow. You just need a few of the right people to come along on that journey with you, and you can make significant change.
Scott Perry:
Now, I am engaged in coaching in several of the Akimbo Workshops created by Seth Godin. And I really loved that work. Seth, of course, is a fantastic leader, is a deep thinker. I'm looking forward to continuing to coach those programs for us as long as it's beneficial to Seth and his goals and to my own as well. Creative on Purpose took two and a half years to come up with that as a brand and as a platform that was clear about what it's for and who it's for, and the change that it's trying to make. And it's an exciting time for me, because it's only been in the last six months or so that it's moved from a buyable enterprise to a sustainable one. Meaning that there's community and coaching program there that are funding all of the other goodness that I'm delivering for free, like the blog and the broadcast.
David:
Tell our listeners where they can find out more about you and your work.
Scott Perry:
Sure. So Creative on Purpose is a blog and a broadcast that is intended to help others fly higher and endeavors that make a difference. So if you are interested in discovering, developing and delivering some sort of meaningful enterprise that's going to be done with, and for people you care about, there's a weekly blog and a weekly broadcast that come from the site, becreativeonpurpose.com. And then for people that want to take a bolder step, there is a community and coaching program. Those are paid offerings, but most of the people that are a member of that community are people that are just signed up for the newsletter and therefore getting early access to the blog and broadcast information. Creative on Purpose for two and a half years was purely just a passion project and labor of love that I still was excited to get up and interact and develop even when it was really just costing me money and lots and lots of time.
Scott Perry:
Now that it's sustainable, I'm interested in leveraging that as hard as I can and amplifying the megaphone that's provided to me because it's the work that I've been blessed to do. A lot of things where I was self-employed and doing things that matter to me and make a living at it as a musician and as a music teacher. But this, what I'm doing now, I've never felt that the work is more meaningful or important and never drive more pleasure than I am from the work that I'm doing right now. And the what's next as far as I can tell right now is just more of the same. I've retired from musical performance, but I still love teaching and could plan on continuing to teach guitar lessons and continue to blog and broadcast and coach through the Creative On Purpose program and continue to coach through the Akimbo Workshops. Because it's through continuing to lean into those endeavors that I know that the what's next will reveal itself. I just haven't seen it yet.
David:
I don't want to miss an opportunity. Is there anything else that you would like to add?
Scott Perry:
I would just say that for anybody listening that feels that they're capable of more, better, that's an easy question to answer, of course, you are. And that probably is going to require that you're pushing yourself to edges where there's a little bit of tension and discomfort, maybe even resistance and fear. But it's also where the work that will energize you and feed your health, happiness and wellbeing also lies. And I think just one of the things I learned from being a musician is that you know you're doing it right when you're having fun and it feels like play. As a musician, I played music for a living and when I went to practice sessions, it always felt to me like I was really getting away with something. Because I always really felt like I was really enjoying what I was doing and who I was doing it with and who I was doing it for.
Scott Perry:
And I think that we've been talking today, David, about a lot of things that maybe seem very serious and heavy. But this kind of felt like a journey that has just fueled my sense of purpose and passion and my sense of health and happiness and wellbeing. So I think it's just important to pay attention to how do you feel about what you're doing and not to shy away from discomfort or tension and to welcome moments of frustration. Because it probably means that there's some growth and learning happening, but also to appreciate and be grateful for the fact that this is the work that you get to do. And it's not the work that you have to do. I'll leave you with my favorite Marcus Aurelius quote, which is, "Love the humble art that you have learned and take rest in it."
Scott Perry:
And by the humble art, he means the art of living and the art of living, it's an art that we learned through doing it. And it's sort of work in progress and it's work that's worth it and work that we should be grateful for and appreciate just having the opportunity to be engaged in.
David:
Well, thanks, Scott. That's a great place for us to end. I just want to say thank you again for sharing your story and your insights with us today.
Scott Perry:
My pleasure, David. And I just would like to say that having been investigating your work here recently and having this invitation to speak with you today, I'm deeply grateful for the work that you're doing for the impact that you have and for the connections that you're building. And your work really matters and I'm grateful to you for what you're doing.
David:
Well, thank you very much and you have a great day.
Scott Perry:
Thank you, David.
David:
Thanks for listening today. Podcast cover art is from Unsplash by photographer, Simon Matt Zinger, with the view of Autmunster am Chauncey, Austria. And the soundtrack is Sweet Adrenaline by Delicate Beats. You can reach podcast host David Reynolds at leadlearnchange@icloud.com. Follow us on Instagram at Lead. Learn. Change. and check out LinkedIn for podcast related posts. Find the Lead. Learn. Change. Podcast on your search engine, iTunes, Google podcasts, Spotify, iTunes, or other listening app. Leave a rating, write a review, subscribe and share with others. In the meantime, go lead, go learn, go make a change, go.