Born February 27th in 1925, Vladimir Munk enjoyed a happy childhood and then, during his teenage years, the Nazis occupied his Czechoslovakian hometown, and the trajectory of his life would be forever altered. He lost both of his parents in Auschwitz, yet he survived four concentration camps, and after the war he earned advanced degrees in science and went on to teach young people for two decades. Vladimir was forced into multiple environments where horrific atrocities were committed, yet during that same time period he met Kitty, the love of his life, and their amazing story is captured in a book being authored by Julie Canepa. As a lover of fine food and as a man with a welcoming heart, Vladimir’s approach to life focuses on the nearly 95 years that are not connected with the events of World War II, and he refuses to have his identity defined by the label of Holocaust survivor. Listen to Vladimir’s story and you will find yourself reflecting on what matters most in life. Don’t forget to check out the Show Notes for related links and information.
Vladimir’s audio clips (0:55)
Julie and Vladimir – opening banter, welcome (5:10)
Vladimir’s background/intro (8:30)
24 months in concentration camps, 1300 months of life (10:40)
Childhood memories – an only child, sports, scouts, a good life (11:30)
The Nazis occupy Czechoslovakia when Vladimir was fourteen years old (11:50)
Jewish children no longer allowed to attend public school (12:00)
Taking the train 300 miles to take exams (12:20)
Vladimir and his friend receive their test results (13:45)
Remembering his first, third, and fifth grade teachers (14:30)
Seventh grade chemistry teacher and the academic “contest” with Vladimir’s father (15:00)
March 15, 1939 – the Nazis came to Pardubice (16:00)
Instant implementation of anti-Jewish laws (16:30)
Czechoslovakia split and Bohemia became part of Germany (16:50)
Banishment from theaters, organizations, scouts, and forced to work at age sixteen (17:10)
Jews and non-Jews separated at work – building radios, and a chance to hear the news (18:00)
Called to be transported to Terezín, the ghetto concentration camp (19:25)
Conflicting interests in the war as the Germans were winning against fascism (20:00)
Disappointment with France and Great Britain, and a lack of belief in other countries’ promises, fed into a type of [initial] support for Germany's war efforts (20:45)
The difficulty of maintaining public friendships after the occupation (21:45)
Vladimir’s dad turns down help with luggage to keep friends from getting into trouble for assisting Jews (23:10)
Difficult to talk about family, parents (23:45)
Swimming and skating with his mother, and skiing on vacation, and playing on the mounds of coal at the factory at home (24:00)
Spending time with his dad in the laboratory at work, learning about analytical balances (24:30)
A valuable lesson from his dad about hypotheses and data (25:30)
Stolpersteine commemoration of Vladimir’s parents (27:30)
Life at Terezín (29:30)
From Terezín to Auschwitz, October 1944 (30:45)
“Selection” at Auschwitz and separation from his father (31:00)
Face to face with Josef Mengele (32:15)
Learning about the reality of Auschwitz (-Birkenau) (33:30)
Waiting for his mother (34:30)
Vladimir’s future wife Kitty (35:00)
How does someone survive such an experience? (36:00)
The death march to Blechhammer (39:00)
Waking up to a virtually empty camp, and the ensuing barrage from tanks (40:00)
Bread (42:00)
Momentary fast-forward to bread baking after retirement (43:45)
January 26, 1945 – taking a chance with some guards (44:30)
True liberation at last, bumazhka, and cooking without water (46:20)
A hospital stay, then back home to Pardubice (48:55)
More audio clips to introduce the closing segment of the conversation (49:30)
The beginning of a professorship in the United States (52:00)
Soviet occupation in 1968 leads to Plattsburgh, New York (53:00)
Teaching keeps you young – Forty-four years old for fifteen years (54:45)
A decision to retire (56:00)
“Every chemist is a good cook” (56:40)
Vacations and travel with Kitty (57:30)
Tragedies may not always and forever be in a foreign country (58:30)
Live a normal life, not the life of a Holocaust survivor (59:20)
The shared ordeal at Terezín created a special bond with Kitty (1:00:00)
Students’ stories, students’ interest in his story, student letters (1:01:00)
LINKS
Film documentary
Homepage:
and, Return to Auschwitz: The Survival of Vladimir Munk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGIWje7EzYs&feature=emb_logo
and, the GoFundMe site for the documentary:
https://www.gofundme.com/f/r3jpq-return-to-auschwitz-the-survival-of-vladimir-munk
The working title for Julie Canepa’s book is Vlada and Kitty: A Holocaust Love Story. Slated for completion and publication in 2021. You can visit Julie's website to read excerpts of the book.
General information about the Stolperstine project can be found online. Here are a few starter links:
http://www.stolpersteine.eu/en/home/
https://theculturetrip.com/europe/germany/articles/stumbling-upon-europes-stolpersteine/
Music for Lead. Learn. Change. is Sweet Adrenaline by Delicate Beats
Podcast cover art for Lead. Learn. Change. is a view from Brunnkogel (mountaintop) over the mountains of the Salzkammergut in Austria, courtesy of photographer Simon Berger, published on www.unsplash.com.
Professional Association of Georgia Educators: www.pageinc.org
David (00:00:11):
What matters most in learning? The challenge, the thrill, the benefits, interacting with other people, or something else entirely? What is the connection between leading and learning? Does change drive learning or does learning drive change? What's more important, teaching or learning? Is everyone a leader, a learner, a teacher? Want answers? Listen in as we address the intriguing issues through commentary and with guests who share their thinking and tell us their stories. "Lead. Learn. Change."
OPENING CLIPS
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:00:58):
The Nazi's came in 1939 on the 15th of March. I remember the day because we were left- left going home from the school and I was, I was at the intersection where the army was coming.
New Speaker (00:01:16):
Soon after the occupation you found out that many so-called friends tried to avoid meeting you or talking to you in public because they may be reported, they may lose their jobs, they may be called to the police, all kinds of difficulties.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:01:35):
And in Auschwitz, the first thing when they got us out of the train was so-called selection. It was Mengele and one other doctor, and every person who was in the train had to step in front of them, and he by moving his hands either to the left or to the right showed where the person has to go.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:01:57):
Of course, I didn't know that people who were sent to the other side were- were taken directly to the gas chamber and killed. So, she actually ended in the gas chamber too. She was 40 years old, so I was waiting, waiting, really all summer, but she didn't show up. So...
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:02:20):
When you are hungry, and when you will be hungry not for a day or for a week, but when you are hungry for several months, you will not be hungry for pork or for goose or for that... You will be hungry just for good bread.
New Speaker (00:02:35):
And far away we saw two soldiers, and we couldn't recognize if they are Russian or if they are German, so we went to them, we came close. With our luck, with our bad luck, they were German.
David (00:02:51):
This is David Reynolds, host of "Lead. Learn. Change." I want to mention Vladimir's birthday in just a moment. But first, a few thoughts about this installment of the podcast. This episode follows the standard guest-based conversation format with some audio clips opening the episode as you just heard.
David (00:03:11):
Typically, immediately after these sound bites, the formal introduction starts and my discussion with the guest ensues. In this special episode, however, there was a need to engage in some dialogue before we jumped in, as Vladimir and I had not spoken before. Later, as I reviewed the recording, it seemed that the friendly banter that Vladimir and I exchanged in the early moments of our call added a bit of depth, meaning, and context to the general tone and demeanor of the overall conversation, so I left it in.
David (00:03:41):
I was struck by Vladimir's congenial attitude, willingness to talk with a total stranger about very personal matters, and his patience and candor with my attempts to break the ice by my poorly delivered Czech language phrases. As you listen to Vladimir's story, which will be punctuated by a second set of audio clips as we near the final third of the episode, you may want to reflect on how Vladimir continued to demonstrate his sense of humor in the midst of memories of horrific times, how his honesty about his experiences was not tempered by how others might interpret his perception of what he lived through, and how his interaction with others - family, students, and friends, serve as a constant theme in his life.
David (00:04:21):
These are just a few of the many amazing qualities that surfaced for me as I listened to the episode once more. Julie Canepa, Vladimir's friend who accompanied him on his recent return trip to Auschwitz, not only made today's conversation happen, but is also involved in a number of projects focused on Vladimir's life. She is writing a book about Vladimir's and Kitty's love story, and Julie is also engaged in an effort to help produce a documentary regarding the return to Auschwitz. Links for these projects can be found in the show notes.
David (00:04:54):
One final note, This podcast episode's release date is February 27th, 2021, in honor of Vladimir's 96th birthday. Now, back to the opening dialogue with Vladimir and the full introduction and conversation thereafter.
Julie Canepa (00:05:13):
And can you hear us?
David (00:05:15):
I can.
Julie Canepa (00:05:16):
Great.
David (00:05:16):
Excellent.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:05:17):
Okay.
Julie Canepa (00:05:18):
David, Vladimir. Vladimir, David.
David (00:05:21):
I want to try to say something Vladimir, I want to say, [Czech 00:05:25]. Vladimir. How was that?
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:05:25):
Can- can you make it a little bit louder?
Julie Canepa (00:05:27):
Yep.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:05:27):
Oh, I should take my hearing aids.
Julie Canepa (00:05:29):
Yeah, well you wanna make sure you hear his questions, but... Try that again.
David (00:05:35):
Sure, I just wanted to practice something and say, [Czech 00:05:38], Vladimir.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:05:44):
Uh-
Julie Canepa (00:05:44):
[Czech 00:05:44]?
David (00:05:44):
[Czech 00:05:44]. Is that correct? Nice to meet you?
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:05:46):
'Cause, no.
David (00:05:48):
No? How do I say, "nice to meet you"?
Julie Canepa (00:05:49):
In, Czech.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:05:52):
Oh, we usually answer this and we say, [Czech 00:05:54] after.
Julie Canepa (00:05:56):
Oh, so i- it's not the greeting, it's the response.
David (00:05:58):
Ah.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:05:59):
Yeah, so, because I teach Julie Cz- Cz- Czech- Czech.
David (00:06:03):
Maybe this will work. What if I say, [Czech 00:06:05] for this Czech lesson.
Julie Canepa (00:06:07):
[Czech 00:06:07]?
David (00:06:07):
[Czech 00:06:07]? Is that even close to thank you? Boy, I'm really falling flat here.
Julie Canepa (00:06:12):
[Czech 00:06:12]. Thank you.
David (00:06:13):
Yeah.
Julie Canepa (00:06:14):
Can you not hear him or is he just mispronouncing it (laughs)?
David (00:06:18):
(laughs).
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:06:18):
I sit here a- a moment.
David (00:06:18):
Okay.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:06:20):
And I be ready in a second.
Julie Canepa (00:06:22):
He's gonna put his hearing aid in. Well, I- I admire you trying to speak Czech (laughs).
David (00:06:28):
Well, I tried.
Julie Canepa (00:06:30):
Now I'm too loud for him (laughs).
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:06:32):
That's right (laughs).
Julie Canepa (00:06:34):
Now you know how loud I really am (laughs).
David (00:06:37):
And, feel free to turn my volume down if necessary, that will not affect the recording.
Julie Canepa (00:06:41):
Is- is he too loud for you?
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:06:43):
No, he's fine.
Julie Canepa (00:06:44):
Okay. You're all good now.
David (00:06:45):
Okay, excellent. I'm sorry, Vladimir, that I messed up my Czech so badly. I really wanted to try to say something nice.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:06:51):
It's okay (laughs). It's a difficult language (laughs).
David (00:06:57):
One thing I think I can pronounce, and this'll be, if I don't do this one right, I will stop, would be Kolaches. I watched some videos on how to eat...how to make the delicious Kolaches, and I'm assuming you probably have had many of those.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:07:11):
Yeah, Kolaches. And they are [crosstalk 00:07:14].
David (00:07:14):
Kolaches.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:07:14):
Kolach(k)es are large and Kolaches are very small. I have to teach Julie how to make Kolaches. In real life, she made a lot of mistakes, but the main mistake was (laughs) that she sold the bakery (laughs).
Julie Canepa (00:07:27):
(laughs).
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:07:27):
And started writing (laughs).
David (00:07:33):
Well, make sure you put your instructor, teacher hat back on and do that. Thank you very much for speaking with me today. It is very nice to meet you. I'll say it in English since I didn't quite get it right in Czech.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:07:44):
Okay (laughs).
David (00:07:46):
Today's guest on "Lead. Learn. Change." is Vladimir Munk, and he is accompanied by his dear friend Julie Canepa. Vladimir, thank you for taking time to speak with me today.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:07:56):
Yeah, I'm glad to be here.
David (00:07:58):
So, what's the weather like there in, in Plattsburgh?
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:08:00):
It's, I haven't been outside today, but it looks nice. The wind yesterday was very windy, today it's calm. Not cold. Not too hot. Just start, the fall started.
David (00:08:14):
Yes, I love the fall. My favorite season.
New Speaker (00:08:18):
I am truly honored that you're sharing your story with me and with our listeners, and so I want to start with a brief introduction, and then after that, I want everyone to hear from you.
David (00:08:29):
Vladimir Munk is a remarkable man. He is a survivor of the Holocaust, escaping death in four different camps during the Nazi's terrible and inhumane reign during World War II. As a teenager, Vladimir was removed from his home in the Czech Republic and was sent first to the ghetto Terezín, then to Auschwitz where he lost both of his parents, followed by Gleiwitz and ending in Blechhammer after a three day death march.
David (00:08:53):
Liberated by Soviet Soldiers, Vladimir was reunited with Kitty, the girl he met at the first camp, and with whom he had fallen in love. That reunion was short-lived however as Kitty and her family emigrated to the United States. Upon turning 21, Kitty returned to Prague, and she and Vladimir were married in 1949. They had two sons together and Vladimir and Kitty were married until Kitty's death in 2015.
David (00:09:18):
It's been 75 years since Vladimir was freed from the Concentration Camp, yet the memories of his life are clear, vivid, and compelling. Vladimir earned a doctorate in Biochemistry and microbiology, served as a research scientist, and then became an educator teaching as a professor at SUNY, the State University of New York in Plattsburgh.
David (00:09:39):
He is creative, determined, an accomplished cook, and most of all, an inspiration to everyone who hears his story. So, what I really want to do is just hear your story about your entire life. I'm not gonna f- I will focus on some of the concentration camp content, obviously, but, I think that after reading everything that Julie has shared with me and what I do know, that your life before and after is also a wonderful story.
David (00:10:11):
Your life with Kitty and your childhood and climbing on the mounds of coal, and, the Kolaches, the desserts that we talked about. So, just start off by telling us about your childhood and- and your parents, and your childhood friends, and maybe even, I know you love scouting, you had that little family dog for years, you- you learned to ski and skate as a child, so anything about your childhood and your family you'd like to share.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:10:38):
My last talk was beginning of March of this year, when we were invited by another lady who is French-Hungarian or something to a group of high, of university students to talk. And I just said in my talk, this - at 95 years, I was alive for about 1,300 months or something like this, and- and everybody is interested in the 24 or 26 months that I was in concentration camp. So when I have to talk about one hour about this 24 months, I will talk 40 hours past something about my whole life (laughs). So, we have to do something, something in between, right? (laughs).
David (00:11:25):
Absolutely.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:11:26):
Well, there is nothing too interesting, too interesting about my life. I was a only child so I was a little bit spoiled, but I was not too spoiled, I did some sports, I was, I enjoyed scouts and until I was 14, 15, I had very happy time and life. When I was 14, the Nazis occupied Czechoslovakia and then the problems started. Jewish children were not permitted to attend public schools, which means I ended at the end of middle school, but was not admitted, was not admitted to the high school because, yeah, that was 1940.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:12:16):
There was one religious school not in Pardubice, or in Prague, but in Brno which was about 300 miles away, and we have to use the - to go there for examination, we have to use a train which means we had to get special permission to use the train. The Jews were not permitted to use the train.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:12:37):
Anyway, my father somehow arranged that I and a friend of mine, the same - in the same class in high school were studying long-distance. We did pretty well and in January, we got permission to go to Brno where the, where the Jewish school was, to pass examinations.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:13:04):
Our Rabbi wrote a letter, a nice, a letter of introduction to the Rabbi at the school, and we found that they gave us accommodatiions -...ing some families. We went to the school, and that was at that time of the war, and that was at the time when all the anti-Jewish laws were functioning.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:13:23):
Well, to pass physical exam, we had to go on the bench and jump down, that we did. We passed mathematics, we passed Physics, we passed most of the, most of the subjects, but the problem was that it was Jewish school, the religion, it was very strict. The Rabbi came and, gave us some questions that we were not able to answer them, more questions, we are not able to answer them, our Rabbi was to read Hebrew and some stories from the Bible.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:13:55):
Anyway, to make a story short, then when we got the examination result, I failed religion. My friend passed with D. So, that was the end of my religious education. I gave up. So, I was Jewish boy but I stopped reading religious books (laughs).
David (00:14:19):
You were an educator and a professor for years, so I know you think teaching is valuable. Did you have any wonderful teachers that you remember in elementary school or those early middle school years?
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:14:32):
Yeah, I- I remember my my school teacher from the, from the first to the third grade, it was a lady who taught German and I visited with her when I returned back in '45. She had very early arthritis. Was practically disabled. Soon after, she died. So, I remember her. Then I remember the teacher that I had in the fifth grade. He was great teacher. And then I remember the teacher in the middle school because he taught chemistry. My father was chemist, so he wanted to prove that he's better at chemistry than my father, and he always started, the first question called to me. And of course, my father had to prove that he is better, so he insisted that I study chemistry, study chemistry, study chemistry (laughs).
David (00:15:27):
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:15:27):
and knew all the details that, so, what happened then? Well, I returned back after the war, and I was thinking, "What about my future?" I said, "The only thing I know is chemistry." So I went to Chemical school, to Chemical University in Prague.
David (00:15:42):
You mentioned how things drastically shifted after the occupation. What other types of rules and decrees... were you required, as we read in the history books, that you and your family members to wear a yellow star and- and were your family pets part of this whole draconian rules and regulations scenario?
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:16:05):
Yes. The Nazis came in 1939 on the 15th of March, I remember the day because we were left- left going home from the school and I was, I was at the intersection where the army was coming to Pardubice. Was standing then for a long time because it was uninterrupted, a procession of cars and motor- motorcycles, with side cars, and side cars, they have always a machine gun . . . army, army, army, army. That's, that was the beginning.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:16:43):
The moment the Nazis came or the, the occupation started, they applied all the anti-Jewish laws that were varied for Germany because Czechoslovakia split and the part that we lived in, Bohemia, became a Protectorate, it became part of the Germany, so all the anti-Jewish-
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:17:03):
It became part of the Germany, so all the anti-Jewish laws became part of, of, uh, of former Czechoslovakia, of former Czech republic and there were many limitations. Jews were not, not permitted, were not permitted to attend publics, public movies, theaters, sport events, we were not permitted to be in any organization, like, I was not permitted to, to join the scout organization. Uh, after one year we were not permitted to attend public schools, and when we were 16 years old, which was, one and a half year after the occupation, we were forced to work, so I had to report every day at the city, and we started to clean the streets.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:17:56):
Fortunately, for me, there was a man who was a, I don't know who we was, he was co-owner of a, of a co-op, co-op just made, just made machinery and tools, and he got an idea to hire Jews and got permission to hire Jews to negotiate a contract to produce, I think, two thousand or three thousand, uh, radios. So, what he did was that he built something like a wooden barrack where he put all the Jews that they were separated from the non-Jewish employees and told us, or got somebody else from the co- from the company to teach us, how to make radios. Each of us did only small part, so I was hired, and that was a great job.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:18:45):
First of all, it was in warm - warm, because we were inside. Second, it was relatively easy work s- and, I was sitting at the end and did the tuning. Doing the tuning was fun and at the time when the British BBC reported in Czech, I tuned into the Czech language about the international news, so we were informed. The owner, who was most of the time with us in the shop, disappeared for this time in his office, so we were undisturbed listening to the foreign (laughs), foreign news. But that ended a short time before we were, we were called to, uh, to prepare, to transport to Terezín.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:19:41):
But, I had a lot of friends there, because the guy hired mainly young people, so, most of my friends at that time were with me the whole, all day, every day in this, in this shop.
David (00:19:57):
Before all of this, you mentioned the specific date of the occupation. Was that the first instance where you knew that things were going badly, or was there some other clue, or were there other hints, prior to that, where you knew this is heading in a very bad direction.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:20:19):
You see, the problem was that the German were winning the war and many people, and I between them, for example, we were friends for the German when they were beating, when they were beating Poland. Poles, 'cause Poles are fascists. Open fascists, so, we beat them bad, and then were losing war, we were quite happy. We have the realizing - second, everybody was extremely disappointed by the former friends, France and Great Britain, because we had our Czech, Czechoslovakia had contract with, with Great Britain, and France, they will protect, they will protect, Czechoslovakia. Then, our former president, Beneš at the time, make a contract with Soviet Union, but Soviet Union said only under the condition that you will be protected by France and England, we will protect you too.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:21:23):
Since France and England didn't protect us, Soviets didn't do anything. So, we were totally lost. That was extreme disappointment, and this disappointment lasted for years and years and lasted even now, I don't believe them, which is practically just same with United States, [inaudible/laughs] look at the course in the United States, right?
David (00:21:46):
You mentioned that you were notified that it was time for transport, which basically means, we're going to uproot you from your home and send you away, to wherever we tell you we want you to go, to get to Terezín, was the first place, if I'm not mistaken. When you were headed to the train, I know that some decent neighbors or friends offered to help in some way, and your father had to, turn that down, because he didn't want them to get in trouble for helping, is that correct, and is, is that the reaction of most of your friends?
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:22:23):
Yeah, yeah. The problem was that soon after the occupation you found out that many so called friends tried to avoid meeting you or talking to you in public because they may be reported, they maybe lose their jobs, they may be called to the police, all kinds of difficulties. So, some friends was bringing us food, because there was a problem, w- we were not permitted to buy a lot of things that we normally bought, but, we got them under the table, so called, when we went shopping. But, in public, they avoid us. And that was the same thing, when, wh- when we were supposed to go to the transport and needed to move the luggage and everything, we got an offer that somebody will help us.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:23:13):
My father says, no, thank you. We will do it alone, because you will be, you will fall into difficulties that were helping Jews.
David (00:23:21):
It sounds like your parents must have been very honorable people, and I know that they loved you deeply and you loved them, and you mentioned that you were an only child, and a little spoiled, and I know that there was also an event last week, that honored their memory in some way. So, just tell me your most fond memories with your parents and what they were like and then share anything you'd like about last week.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:23:52):
Uhfff, it's difficult to talk about it, but, we spent a lot of time together. Especially me and my mother, because she didn't work. So, she accompanied me in the summer to, to the swimming pools, and in the winter to the skating, and we used to go for at least two weeks in the winter, during the winter vaction for the skiing in the mountains. And I don't, I am pretty sure that we played at home, too. But, I don't remember anymore, because I l- I loved to play in the, in the yard of the factory, and this was not for her, because we were climbing the mountains of coal, and all this [aughs] kinds that the boys are doing. So, a- apparently she had to wash me [laughs].
David (00:24:48):
Right (laughs).
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:24:49):
My father was nice, if he spent a lot of time in the factory, and I enjoyed when in the weekend he usually took me into the laboratory and showed me some of the equipment and told me how to use it. So, when I was 10, 11 years old, I learned how to use analytical balances. These were balances that you have to watch left and right and left and right and left and right. Not just the numbers jumping there. So, and that was s- that was very . . . very nice, because it helped me later on in my life when I started to really work in the laboratory, because I used some basic techniques, and something that my my father taught me from the beginning is, whatever you do, remember [inaudible 00:25:42 - micororganisms?].
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:25:42):
Because we lived in the distillery where the alcohol was made by fermentation, which is used, was mixed with molasses to convert sugar in molasses into alcohol. There, remember, whatever you do in your life, [inaudible 00:25:57] are always right. When you make hypothesis, and it isn't work, it's not that they are, they, they are supposed to do this. No, they did what they do normally. You were, your hypo- hypothesis was wrong. That was extremely helpful, because when I finish, when I finish my graduate studies, I was hired by a group of, of physicians, they, that were [inaudible 00:26:25] at the time, it was after the war, to, to, run their laboratory. And of course, med- physicians, even now, and even in the United States, they are something between God and people. Yeah? Because they tried to save lives that the God wanted to take away, so they feel that they are more important than normal p- normal person, and that they are always right. And when I did some experiment, and brought the result of the experiment to the doctor, who expected different results, he started to blame me ( laughs) [inaudible 00:27:01] I said, "Sorry. These are the result that," (laughs) "Look. Somewhere it's a mystery 'cause some, somewhere our thinking is wrong." And I just couldn't work there. So, I quit after, I think, I worked there about six months and I quit.
David (00:27:16):
This is probably a great time to tell you that our son is going to be a physician (laughs).
Julie Canepa (00:27:20):
(laughs).
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:27:23):
(laughs).
David (00:27:23):
Hopefully he'll have the, the right, humble approach about his own calling in his work, so tell me what happened last week with the installation of the stone, is that correct?
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:27:34):
Uh, yeah. I don't know if you read about it, or if you can google it, it's called s-
Julie Canepa (00:27:42):
Stolperstein. Stolperstein?
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:27:43):
Stolper- Stolper- Stolperstein. About twenty years ago, a German, a German sculptor invented small, invented small blocks of concrete, I think, they were two by two inches, and put on the top, uh, Bronze or metallic, metallic little plate with the name of the person and data- and, important data, who was forcefully taken from their house and sent to concentration camp. Most of them didn't survive, and they inven- they put these, these stones in the sidewalk in the front of the house. He patented everything, and for twenty years, he was the one who were, who was e- embedding these stones in the sidewalks.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:28:39):
More than 70,000 now are in Europe. And, in Pardubice, they started to do it and picked up my family as the first three stones who were embedded across the, our apartment in the company house where we lived until, until '42 when we were sent to Terezín [crosstalk 00:29:00]. So, I didn't plan to go, but my sons plan to go for, to the, to participate in this, uh, celebr- or, not celebration, but, important thing. But, thanks to the virus, they couldn't go to Europe because, all Americans going to Europe, [inaudible 00:29:18] are quarantined for two weeks in Europe, and when they come back to United States, they are quarantined for two weeks.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:29:26):
So two, one day, or two day trip to (laughs) to Europe would cost them four weeks of quarantine. But, it looks nice, [inaudible 00:29:35] I have a picture of it, and here's my immortality. Right?
Julie Canepa (00:29:39):
(laughs).
David (00:29:41):
That's right. That's right. I will definitely look that up. In the midst of this wonderful family, you and your mother and your father had to leave and go to Terezín and then you were separated from them when you arrived as a very young man, an older teenager, and that had to be heart wrenching to be separated from your parents. Did you have any hope at that time, or did you think this is just temporary? Were you full of despair, w- what was the feeling when you were separated?
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:30:11):
Well, I was not separated in the beginning, we went to Terezín, which was like, ghetto concentration camp, not close, but not far away from Prague, still, in the former Czechoslovakia, and we stayed there near, close to two years.
David (00:30:29):
Okay.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:30:31):
And absolutely, we didn't believe, we just believed that we will survive, because it was, it was September, 1944, everybody knew the Nazis are losing, and that it's a question of weeks or months before the war will end and Germany lose. But, Nazis, at this time, started to be afraid of uh, of uh, of uh, what would I say?
Julie Canepa (00:30:58):
Uprising, or rebellion?
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:30:59):
Upri- yeah, uh, probably up- uprising of, there were few uprising in, in Polish concentration camp, so, to prevent uprising in this, in Terezín, they decided to empty, to empty the, the concentration camp by removing 20,000, uh, healthy, relatively young persons. And the whole month of October, they were sending twice a week, about 2,000 to 4,000 people to Auschwitz at the beginning of October, 1944, I lived together with my father in, in a military barrack and my mother, who didn't live with us, come to visit us every evening. So, I was, I had still my family. So, we were sent with my father in the third transport on the 1st of October, to Auschwitz, and in Auschwitz, we, we, we were not [inaudible 00:31:58] we didn't know that it's Auschwitz where we were sent.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:32:02):
They told us that we, they are send, they are sending us to a small city close to Prague where they w- where we will build a labor camp. But we ended in Auschwitz, and in Auschwitz, the first thing when they got us out of the train, was so called selection, which means the SS came. It was Mengele and one of the doctor, and every person who was in the train had to step in front of them and he by moving his hand either to the left or to the right, showed where the person has to go. So, my father, my father was the first one to step in front of them, he answered one q- one or two questions, I saw him. Apparently the doctor asked him if he's healthy or not, and my father probably said that he has asthma, because he had asthma, and so, he just signed his, his death sentence. So, he walked to the left side. The doctor just showed to the right, he went to the left side. I stepped in front of them, he didn't, they didn't ask anything, I was 19 years old, I was healthy, showed on the other side, so I went to a small group on the other side of the, of the railroads and we were then marched into Birkenau, in the barracks. But, at least we survived this way. Of course, I didn't know that people who were sent to the other side were, were taken directly to the gas chamber and killed. So, after one or two days when we were standing outside and where we were counting and counting, counting, I asked a Pole, uh, not older, well, a little bit older, but the older prisoner there.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:33:52):
I said, I said, "What happened to the people who were sent to the other side when we were s- when we came out of the train?" And he showed me in the back where three...
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:34:02):
And he showed to me in the back where three, I think three or tall- tall, very tall chimneys with black smoke going out of it. You will see the smoke, that's ve- that's where your father went. In Auschwitz, you didn't die. You went, you went up the smoke or up the chim- up the chimney in smoke. So, I knew that my father was killed. I didn't know about my mother because she didn't come with us. She followed us about two weeks later and as I learned, she was helping her sister-in-law with a small child, and women with small children, were sent automatically to the gas chamber. So, he, her, she ended in the gas chamber too. She had good chance to survive because she was healthy. She was 40 years old. So, I was waiting, waiting nearly all summer, but she didn't show up so-
David (00:35:10):
When you were in Terezin, the, the first place, is that where you met Kitty?
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:35:16):
Yeah, yeah. Kitty had one advantage. Her mother was as American citizenship. And that protected them being sent to the Auschwitz or some other concentration camp because they survived in, out in Terezin. Later, uh, left Terezin beginning of May. Move, to Prague, lived in Prague and, uh, applied. And, her mother left to United States very soon. And her father, and her father, and she where they had to wait for passports and everything that was cleared by American embassy. Then they follow her. And then when she was 21, she returned and we got married.
David (00:35:56):
Do you remember the first time you told Kitty you loved her?
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:36:02):
(Sighs, laughs) Yeah. Yeah.
David (00:36:06):
Was, was that at Terezin? Did you know right away that she was going to be your wife?
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:36:12):
No, no. I was not quite sure. I was not quite sure even in Prague. Only after we exchanged, uh, started to exchange letters and wrote to each other regularly for nearly two years. And then, and then when she wrote that she is coming back, then I was sure that she, that I, I, I knew that I have to marry her, right? (Laughs) When a girlfriend comes to you from United States to Europe, what can you do?
David (00:36:42):
Huh. That's right. Well, that reminds me, my parents did virtually all of their courtship via letters.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:36:51):
Yeah?
David (00:36:52):
They wrote letters, hundreds of letters over a few year period, five or six years before they ever got married. So, hearing you writing your letters to Kitty is wonderful.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:37:01):
Yeah.
David (00:37:02):
So, when you were in Auschwitz, how did you, especially after the conversation with the gentleman about the, the chimneys - how, how did you maintain hope and, uh, your will to, to persevere?
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:37:17):
Well, you know, to survive Auschwitz, you have to believe in something. There are few things that you have to do to survive. First of all, uh, there were a lot of people who believed, who were really religious by praying, praying, praying. I don't know if it helped them but... I survived, I hated. I hated. When I learned about my father, I started to hate Nazis. I said, "I have to survive to kill Nazis." I had to survive. I just started to hate them. And hate really helped me to survive. I need everything to survive, just as I could to kill some Nazis. But I don't want to talk about this, okay?
David (00:38:03):
No problem. So, when you left there, you went to a place called Gleiwitz and I think you were very creative there with, a terrible situation where you figured out a way to cook some potatoes because of the work you were given and even help some other men there who didn't speak-
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:38:21):
Yeah.
David (00:38:21):
... Czech. I think you're the only person who spoke Czech there.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:38:24):
Yes. You have to do everything to, which means first of all, you have to get some extra food, which I go through the sewages. Second, you have to try to clean yourself. The worst part was they werecold, they were so cold. They, they were people gave up. They stopped, they stopped washing themselves. They stopped trying to get extra food. And they died just from hunger, from cold, from everything. So, I just tried to... Well, I just tried to survive to, to, to kill the Nazis. Hmm.
David (00:39:05):
Is it that same desire to survive that pushed you to the front of the line, to hang on to the back of the wagon on the way to Blechhammer so that you could make it because you were very, very close to falling down and, and not making it? Is that correct?
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:39:20):
Yeah. Just a month before we hit the edges, so called death march. This march, uh, it was called a death march because when they march us, they shot everybody, anybody who was slow. So, uh, in our, in our concentration camp in Gleiwitz was about 1,400 people, when we, when we march, early in the morning, when you needed to pee or something, you had to do, you had to run to the front of the long, long line, and do it. Because when you went to the side, or when you stayed and fell, fell behind, they shot you. And after the third day, I was so exhausted, that I just really couldn't walk. So, I pushed myself to the front, where the really strongest people were, were pushing carts with the, with the property of the, of the guards, and they started pushing the cart. I was hanging on the cart so that the cart was pulling me. And we made it finally, to the concentration, the Blechhammer concentration camp. And I fell in the first empty, empty bed there and slept. And I don't know how they for- how, how they forgot me, because it was late in the afternoon. I didn't wait for food, for anything. Next day, in, not in the morning, but I know what time it was, I woke up and the tent was empty. They just picked up everybody and marched them, marched them for the next ten or eleven days to another concentration camp. They forgot me there.
David (00:41:00):
Did they also send grenades and gunshot back toward the barracks just to make sure that they hadn't left anybody behind and you managed to survive during that barrage, correct?
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:41:13):
Yeah, they left a few guards there. So, I was in a big barrack, and they were probably two or three other people there. And we learn very fast, that it's too dangerous to get out for whatever purpose, because there were guards around, and they shot immediately anybody who showed up. So, we stayed in the barracks, then one or two tanks came, and were shooting in the barracks, but, and burning them. Uh, our barrack was very long. And they shot the other side of it. So, it was an open... It was cold there, uh, because it was January. But still, we were, we were covered against, against wind and, uh, rain or snow or something like this. And then every- everything disappeared. For us, there were no guards, no nothing.
David (00:42:04):
It was you and one other man. And I think you found some bread, and you hadn't tasted bread in a long time. And then you had a confrontation with some German soldiers right after that. Tell us about that.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:42:15):
Well, at this time, I met a young man my age. From Romania. We communicated in German, and we were very, very hungry because we didn't eat for several days. No one was nowhere, and we saw the, the concentration camp was only very small here. And we saw in the distance, something like a village. So, we thought, let's go and find out what we find in the village. So, we walked out, went to the village, kicked open one door. And it was something like recreation place, and the Nazis apparently was running so fast.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:42:56):
The Russians were coming very far, that they left everything there and onto the table was a loaf of bread, loaf of bread. Two days old or one day and the smell of this bread, I, you couldn't believe it. Well, when you are hungry, when you will be hungry not for a day or for a week, but when you will be hungry for several months, you will not be hungry for pork or for goose or for something, you will be hungry just for good bread. I had, didn't have good bread for over two years because even in Terezín, the breads that they made was like, uh, something that is made from, you know, from, uh, wooden dust.
David (00:43:38):
Saw dust, yeah.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:43:40):
Dry. And this was such a smell. And so, I just grabbed the bread and ate it. Oh, I never forget this.
New Speaker (00:43:52):
Many, many years later, when I retired, I started to make my own bread and I was able to make... I was not like Julie, I was not professional. (laughs) But I, not every Sunday - every, every month or so, I was making about eight to twelve loaves of bread. I had to keep my wife in the bed because I took the whole, the whole kitchen. And the smell of the bread was so overwhelming that people stopped their car outside the house and came inside, uh, "Are you making bread? It's such an extremely good smell." ( laughs)
David (00:44:32):
That's great. Tell me about January 26, 1945.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:44:39):
Oh, that. Okay, so when we were in this little house, got some bread, then we open some, uh, uh, some office there, and we find, we had to find something to wear, a little bit warmer than our very thin concentration camp striped dress. So, we found a lot of things. We packed everything and we went back to the concentration camp, because where should we go, right? And in the, and far away, we saw two soldiers. And we couldn't recognize if they are Russian or if they are German because both of them were wearing long white, uh, uh, sheets to, to meld with the environment because there were snow everywhere.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:45:27):
So, these guys were two white sheets covered soldiers, and they waved us. And since we met Russian soldiers before, we thought these are two Russians, so we went to them. We came close. With our luck, with our bad luck, they were German.
David (00:45:43):
Oh no.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:45:45):
And, I said, "What are you, bad luck? The first day when we are liberated, we will be killed by German." Uh, but they were scared too. They just ask us if we saw some Russian soldiers. We said, "No, we didn't see anything. Anybody." So, they waved us again. They knew that we came from the concentration, and we went back. I was marching back. And my behind was so tight. (laughs) I think that I'll be shot. But they never shot us. So, that was I think my worst experience in concentration camp.
David (00:46:21):
What about the actual moment where you knew you were rescued or liberated?
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:46:26):
The Soviets stopped several miles from, from concentration camp, was a long ri- uh, big river. And they had to stop there because the German were on the other side. And they started to circulate because the first wave came, return back home, and new soldiers came, so there was a, a line or a, a, you know, a, a line of, of, uh, uh, Soviet trucks coming and leaving.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:46:54):
Uh, one officer came, and even now they believed in papers, they call every paper... it's called bumazhka. Eve- every official paper is called bumazhka. You have bumazhka, you have everything. So, we were bumazhkas with our names. And this is instruction that takes this person wherever s- wherever you are going. So, we went with our bumazhkas. They have traffic soldiers. Traffic soldiers directed the trucks in one direction, the other direction. We showed him our bumazhka. They stopped the next truck and talked to the drivers. And we were permitted to go in and they took us back, back where we came from, to Gleiwitz.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:47:36):
At the beginning of, we came to Gleiwitz. Of course, from the other direction then we left and there was a, a liquor store there. And of course, about three or four Russian trucks, with 20, or 20, 20, 30 soldiers circulating to the basement and the back with alcohol, all drunk.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:47:59):
So, we disappeared. We went into one Villa, kicked the door open and stayed there. We stayed in the villa for several days. We were cooking. They had extremely good, different food. The only problem was there was no water. But they had a nice wine cellar. So, we cook everything in wine. It means that we were always and per- permanently drunk. Me and the Romanian boy. And finally, a Russian officer came. He told us that we have to move. So, the next day, we just picked our things and went to the truck, to the Russian truck and they took us to another city. There was a first camp for displaced persons. We stayed there and we didn't like it too much. So, we left and finally ended in Krakow and I stayed there until beginning of May but I got pneumonia, so I ended in the hospital there and left the hospital, went to the truck, Russian truck. It was the first one going to, uh, to new Czechoslovakia.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:49:15):
We crossed the border, ended in a big city. And I just take, took the train that took me to my birth place to Pardubice, called out and figured out that my aunt who, who was not Jewish, should live there. So, I went to her, met and stayed with her from May to middle of August, I think.
SECOND AND FINAL SET OF CLIPS
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:49:51):
I don't know if I'm a great teacher. Teaching is great, because you do not age. I was 44. I was 44 for 15 years or something like this.
New Speaker (00:50:03):
When I taught I didn't have time to cook, when I retired, I made my own bread.
New Speaker (00:50:12):
And we traveled a little bit. Not too much. But yeah, we, we traveled across Canada, from Newfoundland, to Victoria. We traveled in United States too. It was nice.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:50:28):
Uh, in, in the war, there were few, uh, not Holocaust but, but, uh, basically, massive murders of tribes, or parts of the nations. W- we don't feel it, because it's always foreign country. But it may not be foreign country, we don't know what will happen or what may happen.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:50:57):
I don't think that I have some special, special, interesting story.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:51:03):
...interesting story, I never talk about holocaust when I was teaching, only after I retired in 1990. And of course they're after our st- our love story, that we- how we met and how th- we are dating, and how we stayed- how we stayed outside after the curfew, and how we are caught and something like this.
New Speaker (00:51:23):
M- m- most of my life, I want to live the normal life. Not the life of the holocaust survivor. We just try just to live a norma- normal life. But the fact is that somehow the holocaust experience stayed with us. That was the reason why Kitty and I stayed together, we never divorced, we were never fighting, and we never argue, because our past was- was something special that we lived through- through- through together.
David (00:51:58):
So Kitty came back to Prague, you all were married, and then you went to the United States on a professorship, but you ended up staying permanently. How did that happen?
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:52:10):
I got acquainted with, uh, uh, with a scientist, a Canadian scientist, who work in the the- in Lethbridge, which is in the [south Canada 00:52:21]. Because I publish something and he ask for a reprint, and at that time there was no internet, so you have to send them reprint of your article, and he asked some questions, so I answered them, so we start- uh, started something like a pen friendship. And then he had to- then he- he moved from Lethbridge to Plattsburgh and became professor of chemistry here in Plattsburgh, and then he became, I think, chairman of the department, and he started to invite me as a visiting professor to Plattsburgh.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:52:55):
I didn't have time because I was doing some serious research, but when he came to Plattsburgh for visits - he and his wife were traveling to Russia because he did some project that was made in in Russia, too - he stopped in Prague, we met, he was not fascinated, but he just was forcefully inviting me. And when the Soviets occupy us in '68, and I was looking to go, not permanently, but at least temporary, abroad, to wait what will happen. A friend of mine contacted him and he sent me immediately official invitation.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:53:39):
And it was better for me to go abroad because should there be war in Europe, the Russians will retaking everything, so I decided to come here to Plattsburgh. Also, a friend told me, "You stay here one year, you can look around, decide if you like it to stay here or to go to another place, meet some other people." So it was very convenient for me, and- and the- and of the year my new government canceled my permit and asked me to return back two months before the original time. And it was, for me, it was difficult because I was teaching one graduate course, and half of the undergraduate courses.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:54:23):
I said, "I cannot just stop teaching because it's two months- two months early." And they didn't change their mind, so I said, "Sorry, I will not return."
David (00:54:34):
You ended up teaching for 21 years, I think. At least 20 years. What did you love about teaching? And what do you think makes a great teacher or a great professor?
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:54:46):
I don't know if I'm great teacher. Teaching is great because you do not age. (Laughs) Since you are all- you- you know? Since you are always among 22 years old, you feel as you ch- you just do not change, you still feel- you always feel that...I was 44, I was 44 for 15 years, or something like this...
David (00:55:06):
(Laughs)
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:55:06):
... or something like this, yeah. (Laughs) Then I found out that the students are a little bit different. They are more polite, they knock on the door before they enter, and I was a little bit slow then I was before. I had my lectures, and there was 55 minutes teaching. (Laughs) And I knew to exactly at, say, 2:55 because they had to go to another course. So when I do not finish, they just raised up and left. And I was unable to finish, I was a little bit slow. I said, "I am getting old, I am getting slow," and my colleague, we talked together, was retiring because he had problem with the heart. Said, "I will retire with you." Because usually, the policy was when one of us retired, they started to look for somebody else, to hire a new person, and the one who will- who was left, had to teach for two persons. (Laughs) I don't need to teach double courses when I am two years before I plan to retire. So we both retired at the same time.
David (00:56:13):
You still teach, though, because I know that you teach some of your fellow residents there some cooking, maybe? I'm not sure, I know you've taught Julie some things. Maybe she's taught you some things, so I know you like sauerkraut soup.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:56:26):
(Laughs)
David (00:56:27):
And duck. Anything you want to tell me about your favorite cooking, uh, activities?
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:56:35):
Well, every chemist is a good cook because cooking is chemistry, right? So when I taught, I didn't have time to cook. When I retired, I made my own bread, and we have friends and her hu- her husband cook, too, so we exchange invitations for Sunday, and we cooked complicated food. So I usually, I didn't cook the normal- the- my- uh, Kit- Kitty cooked the whole week or th- the whole month, but I just cook when something very special. And when we moved her to the - Lake Forest, I had to cook a little bit because we are served just one food, one meal a day, and Kitty who had Alzheimer, love to eat. So I had to cook for her. Now I am too old to cook properly.
David (00:57:27):
What is one of your favorite memories of Kitty, being married, what's one of your favorite memories?
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:57:35):
Oh. Some vacations that we had together. But we didn't have too many vacations together because, you know the old rule that you go with your wife for a vacation, it's double expenses and half of the pleasure. (Laughs)
David (00:57:52):
(Laughs).
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:57:52):
Because she had arthritis, I went with a younger boy, uh, to some camp, and the older boy went to the camp by himself. But when we were here in the United States, we went together for vacations, and we traveled a little bit. Not too much, but yeah. We- we traveled across Canada from Newfoundland to Victoria. We traveled in the United States, too. It was nice. We went to Yellowstone Park and these things.
David (00:58:29):
You said that we should watch carefully what's happening around us because it can happen anytime, anywhere. What did you mean by that exactly?
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:58:39):
In- in the war there were few, not holocaust, but- but, uh, basically, massive murders of tribes or parts of the nations. We don't feel it because it's always foreign country, but it may not be foreign country. We don't know what will happen or what may happen.
David (00:59:04):
Sure, so just being aware that things can happen at any time. Then what is the greatest lesson that you think you've learned in your lifetime? And you said the World War II experience was 26 or 30 months of your life, and you've lived 1,300 some odd months. So overall, I mean, your life, what are the greatest lessons that you've learned?
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (00:59:28):
Well, most of my life, I want to live the normal life. Not the life of the Holocaust survivor. There were people who return from concentration camp, and the life- their life ended at that time. And I know these people. They went to synagogue every Saturday to meet with others, and they were talking always about Holocaust, only about their experience in the Holocaust, only about... We never did it. We not only didn't do it with our children, who didn't know anything about our past, we didn't do it even with our friends. We try just to live a normal- normal life.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (01:00:10):
But the fact is that somehow the Holocaust experience stayed with us. That was the reason why Kitty and myself stayed together. We never divorced, we were never fighting, and we never argue, because our past was- was something special that we lived through- through- through together. Uh, and very often, very often when I at- at least in the 60s, in the 50s, 60s, when I talked with somebody, I tried to imagine this person in the Holocaust. He has all the power, I don't have any power. How will he or she behave? And when you will try to do it, even now if it's a normal person, how would this person behave when he will have all power? Try it, you'll find out a different, an- an interesting, uh, view, eh?
New Speaker (01:01:08):
I don't think that I have some special- special interesting story. I- I have stories with a- with the students that I taught, but sometimes they have- they have better stories about me than I about myself. (Laughs)
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (01:01:25):
I ne- I- when I was here, I never talk about Holocaust when I was teaching. Only after I retired in 1990 for some reason myself and my wife were invited to different schools in the area to talk about our experience in the Holocaust. And so we talk about, we- and of course, they loved our st- our love story that we- how we met and how we are dating. And how we stayed- how we stayed outside after the curfew, and how we are caught and something like this. And then of course the teachers assigned them to write- write Mr. Munk that you thank him for his time, and for his talk.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (01:02:07):
And I have hundreds and hundreds of letters. And one student writes, he was I think 15, "Well, Mr. Munk, thank you for coming. It was very interesting. I read a lot about Holocaust, but there is nothing like to get it straight from the horse's mouth." (Laughs). One girl writes a long letter, and writes me, " I am your new friend, Mr. Munk. Just remember, I am your new friend." (Laughs). All right. I mean, that- that was a nice bu- nice letter. "Dear Mr. Munk, thank you that you came to our class, I never met a living Holocaust survivor. I wish all my life. It was- I had it in my bucket list to meet Holocaust survivor, now I can cross it over." (Laughs). He had a bucket list. (Laughs).
David (01:02:59):
Sounds like many, many students really benefited from and enjoyed your time with them. I have as well. This has been an honor, a privilege. I greatly appreciate you taking time to do this today, to share with me. We didn't even know each other before this phone call, and you put up with my terrible Czech language attempts at the beginning of the call. (Laughs)
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (01:03:20):
(Laughs)
David (01:03:21):
I'll try "thank you" one more time. Is it just [foreign language 01:03:24]? Is that thank you? Is that close?
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (01:03:26):
You are more than welcome.
David (01:03:28):
Ah, excellent. Thank you very much, Vladimir.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (01:03:32):
You're welcome.
David (01:03:32):
It was wonderful, and have a great day.
Vladimir (his accent is Czechoslovakian) (01:03:34):
You, too.
David (01:03:35):
All right, bye bye.
Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
Bye.
David (01:03:40):
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